Jeremy Corbyn

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Jeremy Corbyn

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Hoof Hearted 11 Aug 15 10.47am
Quote johnno42000 at 04 Aug 2015 2.23pm Quote Stuk at 04 Aug 2015 2.09pm Quote npn at 04 Aug 2015 12.23pm Quote Stuk at 04 Aug 2015 11.56am Quote Johnny Eagles at 04 Aug 2015 8.46am The voice of common sense as usual, Stu. Labour are crucifying themselves with this massively drawn-out contest. They constantly bang on about wanting to "have a debate" and "listen to the electorate" but all it amounts to is suicidal infighting while the Tories shift the goalposts in their own favour. Last time the Tories convinced half the electorate it was Labour's fault we had a deficit. Now they're portraying Labour as the party of welfare scroungers. The "debate" is like a 1980s throwback. Corbyn wanting to bring back an elected shadow cabinet is Tony Benn (in whose ideal world we would all spend weekday evenings in draughty school classrooms voting on what day the bins should be taken out) and the 1981 Campaign for Labour Party Democracy all over again. There was even a bloke on radio 4 yesterday talking about "People's QE" (ie, printing money and giving it to local governments and a Green Investment Bank, who clearly know how to spend it wisely) which is like something out of the 1970s! Even if Corbyn does win (I doubt he will and suspect the media are hyping it up) he'll be ousted before the next election. Meanwhile, the Tories are getting away with all kinds of empty, populist nonsense (eg, this ridiculous landlord immigrant fig-leaf) while Labour sit around navel-gazing. Poor effort all round. And the charade is going to carry on for another 5 weeks yet. Agreed. And the thought the Tories may be anything other than thoroughly delighted is laughable in the extreme. I quite like Corbyn (he's quite honest for a politician), but if he were to win the leadership election, he'd be surrounded by a plethora of Labour grandees trying to oust him before he'd even finished his acceptance speech. I doubt the Tories would have to do anything at all for the next 3 months, just stand back, grab the popcorn, and watch the show. The amount of wives he's had I can't even see his choice of deputy sticking with him. The Tories have been given a free opening 4 months since the election, and they'll ride this story until the new year and beyond. From our posts I strongly suspect our politics are a long way apart but I have to agree with you 100% on this. It has been to the disgrace of the Labour party that they have not even put up a token opposition to some of the Tory policies since they were elected. Some of the older MP's have tried but the rest would rather bicker amongst themselves and there is no organised opposition from them. The SNP has emerged as the only opposition, and I am no great lover of theirs, but they should be commended for taking up the slack. The SNP are just posturing and biding their time until they can legitimately conduct another referendum (even though the last one was billed as a once in a lifetime opportunity. They hate all English people, not just Tories and are blind to the fact that Independence would be economic suicide for them.
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Hoof Hearted 11 Aug 15 10.47am

Quote johnno42000 at 04 Aug 2015 2.23pm

Quote Stuk at 04 Aug 2015 2.09pm

Quote npn at 04 Aug 2015 12.23pm

Quote Stuk at 04 Aug 2015 11.56am

Quote Johnny Eagles at 04 Aug 2015 8.46am

The voice of common sense as usual, Stu.

Labour are crucifying themselves with this massively drawn-out contest. They constantly bang on about wanting to "have a debate" and "listen to the electorate" but all it amounts to is suicidal infighting while the Tories shift the goalposts in their own favour. Last time the Tories convinced half the electorate it was Labour's fault we had a deficit. Now they're portraying Labour as the party of welfare scroungers.

The "debate" is like a 1980s throwback. Corbyn wanting to bring back an elected shadow cabinet is Tony Benn (in whose ideal world we would all spend weekday evenings in draughty school classrooms voting on what day the bins should be taken out) and the 1981 Campaign for Labour Party Democracy all over again. There was even a bloke on radio 4 yesterday talking about "People's QE" (ie, printing money and giving it to local governments and a Green Investment Bank, who clearly know how to spend it wisely) which is like something out of the 1970s!

Even if Corbyn does win (I doubt he will and suspect the media are hyping it up) he'll be ousted before the next election.

Meanwhile, the Tories are getting away with all kinds of empty, populist nonsense (eg, this ridiculous landlord immigrant fig-leaf) while Labour sit around navel-gazing. Poor effort all round.

And the charade is going to carry on for another 5 weeks yet.

Agreed. And the thought the Tories may be anything other than thoroughly delighted is laughable in the extreme.

I quite like Corbyn (he's quite honest for a politician), but if he were to win the leadership election, he'd be surrounded by a plethora of Labour grandees trying to oust him before he'd even finished his acceptance speech. I doubt the Tories would have to do anything at all for the next 3 months, just stand back, grab the popcorn, and watch the show.

The amount of wives he's had I can't even see his choice of deputy sticking with him.

The Tories have been given a free opening 4 months since the election, and they'll ride this story until the new year and beyond.

From our posts I strongly suspect our politics are a long way apart but I have to agree with you 100% on this.

It has been to the disgrace of the Labour party that they have not even put up a token opposition to some of the Tory policies since they were elected. Some of the older MP's have tried but the rest would rather bicker amongst themselves and there is no organised opposition from them.

The SNP has emerged as the only opposition, and I am no great lover of theirs, but they should be commended for taking up the slack.

The SNP are just posturing and biding their time until they can legitimately conduct another referendum (even though the last one was billed as a once in a lifetime opportunity.

They hate all English people, not just Tories and are blind to the fact that Independence would be economic suicide for them.

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leggedstruggle Croydon 11 Aug 15 10.53am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 10.39am Quote leggedstruggle at 11 Aug 2015 9.42am Quote sa_eagle at 11 Aug 2015 9.16am Quote phillanth at 27 Jul 2015 5.08pm What's wrong with being a Marxist? Please explain? Well, it appears that the HOL has long been the haven for many hard line crazy rightists who hate anyone who expresses any view that might be construed as being faintly liberal or left wing. Apparently the right wingers have a monopoly on political opinion and no one else matters. It's why I generally avoid the non-football threads but every now and then I let myself down and post a comment. I shall now don my hard hat and wait for the lunatics to shout me down. Nothing as such, some people believe in fairies too. Mind you, belief in fairies has not led to the greatest amounts in history of corpses, repression and general misery that Marxist has. That wouldn't really be down to Marx, Marxism and Marxist theory, any more than blaming Adam Smith for the millions who die each year from preventable diseases in the third world. The blame generally lies with people who think you can force a world to change (notably Marxist Lennism, for example, presents a vanguard theory which Marx doesn't agree with. Marx views capitalism as needing to be in decline before it is replace, Lennin, Mao, Trotsky and Stalin all believed that crisis of capitalism could be provoked by a revolutionary vanguard, and the population could be 're-educated' into the interim communist state (they were of course wrong). So in Marx we see a necessity of historical inevitability that would see communism / socialism emerge from the failure of capitalism, in much the same way that Capitalism emerged from the various forms of Aristocratic of agrarian economics with the Industrial Revolution. Marx points towards a key factor being a post-scarcity society (ie when the production capacity of Capitalism to supply renders profit irrelivent - Probably through a technical evolution similar to the Industrial revolution - I would say something like sub-atomic manipulation technology, such as nano tech, would effectively in time make capital meaningless). Also, Marxism isn't just applicable to left wing politics either, its also applicable to social theory, historical analayis, Archeology without necessitating a political bias (as Marxist theory view society as in conflict and opposition, rather than as a cohesive whole). They formed the Catholic church on the basis of Augustine and Aristotle, doesn't mean that they responsible for burning witches and heretics. The Marxists you mention, Lenin, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung (and Rambling Leon Trotsky given the chance) all built economies and societies based on Marxist theory and guidelines. They implemented the very measures that Marx wanted, including the 'rule of the proletariat' (ie: mass repression). When their brave new world was seen not to usher in a worker's paradise, they increasingly struck out with even greater repression, slave labour camps, manufactured famines, ruthless suppression of all criticism, and the deaths of many millions of innocent people. Marxist Russia eventually collapsed under the weight of its contradictions and Marxist China has of course abandoned Marxism and introduced State Capitalism. So yeah, I do think most of this is down to Marx. mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler
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leggedstruggle

Croydon 11 Aug 15 10.53am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 10.39am

Quote leggedstruggle at 11 Aug 2015 9.42am

Quote sa_eagle at 11 Aug 2015 9.16am

Quote phillanth at 27 Jul 2015 5.08pm

What's wrong with being a Marxist? Please explain?

Well, it appears that the HOL has long been the haven for many hard line crazy rightists who hate anyone who expresses any view that might be construed as being faintly liberal or left wing. Apparently the right wingers have a monopoly on political opinion and no one else matters.

It's why I generally avoid the non-football threads but every now and then I let myself down and post a comment.

I shall now don my hard hat and wait for the lunatics to shout me down.

Nothing as such, some people believe in fairies too. Mind you, belief in fairies has not led to the greatest amounts in history of corpses, repression and general misery that Marxist has.

That wouldn't really be down to Marx, Marxism and Marxist theory, any more than blaming Adam Smith for the millions who die each year from preventable diseases in the third world. The blame generally lies with people who think you can force a world to change (notably Marxist Lennism, for example, presents a vanguard theory which Marx doesn't agree with. Marx views capitalism as needing to be in decline before it is replace, Lennin, Mao, Trotsky and Stalin all believed that crisis of capitalism could be provoked by a revolutionary vanguard, and the population could be 're-educated' into the interim communist state (they were of course wrong).

So in Marx we see a necessity of historical inevitability that would see communism / socialism emerge from the failure of capitalism, in much the same way that Capitalism emerged from the various forms of Aristocratic of agrarian economics with the Industrial Revolution.

Marx points towards a key factor being a post-scarcity society (ie when the production capacity of Capitalism to supply renders profit irrelivent - Probably through a technical evolution similar to the Industrial revolution - I would say something like sub-atomic manipulation technology, such as nano tech, would effectively in time make capital meaningless).

Also, Marxism isn't just applicable to left wing politics either, its also applicable to social theory, historical analayis, Archeology without necessitating a political bias (as Marxist theory view society as in conflict and opposition, rather than as a cohesive whole).

They formed the Catholic church on the basis of Augustine and Aristotle, doesn't mean that they responsible for burning witches and heretics.

The Marxists you mention, Lenin, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung (and Rambling Leon Trotsky given the chance) all built economies and societies based on Marxist theory and guidelines. They implemented the very measures that Marx wanted, including the 'rule of the proletariat' (ie: mass repression). When their brave new world was seen not to usher in a worker's paradise, they increasingly struck out with even greater repression, slave labour camps, manufactured famines, ruthless suppression of all criticism, and the deaths of many millions of innocent people. Marxist Russia eventually collapsed under the weight of its contradictions and Marxist China has of course abandoned Marxism and introduced State Capitalism. So yeah, I do think most of this is down to Marx.

mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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We are goin up! Coulsdon 11 Aug 15 11.10am
All those damn evil free markets that promote creativity and innovation that have given us all the inventions that people climbed over the Berlin Wall to get to. Terrible aren't they? Innovation and the free market allows us to tackle climate change, reduce inequality and improve medicines and treatments globally. The idea that the left have a monopoly in wanting to tackle these issues is daft, the right are capable of morals too. Modern capitalism has been nothing short of a miracle. The criticism that it leaves people behind is wrong. Since the 1980s, the number of people living in absolute poverty has gone from over 50% to less than 20%. World deprivation is falling. The world is more prosperous and benefiting from increasing levels of technology. Marxists, your time came and went. The Soviet Union fell 30 years ago, get over it. It doesn't work. If Corbyn gets elected, Labour can kiss goodbye to 1) electability and 2) credibility in the future. I'm a conservative, but this is bad for politics. Without credible opposition, I worry for what might happen over the next decade. Comfortable governments don't tend to make good ones. The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
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We are goin up!

Coulsdon 11 Aug 15 11.10am

Send a Private Message to We are goin up!

All those damn evil free markets that promote creativity and innovation that have given us all the inventions that people climbed over the Berlin Wall to get to. Terrible aren't they?

Innovation and the free market allows us to tackle climate change, reduce inequality and improve medicines and treatments globally. The idea that the left have a monopoly in wanting to tackle these issues is daft, the right are capable of morals too.

Modern capitalism has been nothing short of a miracle. The criticism that it leaves people behind is wrong. Since the 1980s, the number of people living in absolute poverty has gone from over 50% to less than 20%. World deprivation is falling. The world is more prosperous and benefiting from increasing levels of technology.

Marxists, your time came and went. The Soviet Union fell 30 years ago, get over it. It doesn't work. If Corbyn gets elected, Labour can kiss goodbye to 1) electability and 2) credibility in the future.

I'm a conservative, but this is bad for politics. Without credible opposition, I worry for what might happen over the next decade. Comfortable governments don't tend to make good ones.

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 11 Aug 15 11.12am
Then you should also blame capitalism, as Marxism is a direct response to the experience of Marx and Engles of the exploitation of the working classes by industrialists (the slums, the poverty, disease and squalor that the working classes lived in, compared to the opulence of the middle and upper classes. And the exploitation of the era was rampant to the point of cruel and inhumane. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 11 Aug 15 11.12am

Then you should also blame capitalism, as Marxism is a direct response to the experience of Marx and Engles of the exploitation of the working classes by industrialists (the slums, the poverty, disease and squalor that the working classes lived in, compared to the opulence of the middle and upper classes.

And the exploitation of the era was rampant to the point of cruel and inhumane.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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leggedstruggle Croydon 11 Aug 15 11.17am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 11.12am Then you should also blame capitalism, as Marxism is a direct response to the experience of Marx and Engles of the exploitation of the working classes by industrialists (the slums, the poverty, disease and squalor that the working classes lived in, compared to the opulence of the middle and upper classes. And the exploitation of the era was rampant to the point of cruel and inhumane. I agree with you as to what motivated Marx and Engles, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The implementation of their ideas resulted in arguably more exploitation, poverty, disease and and squalor than that suffered in Victorian Britain and other industrialised countries. mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler
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leggedstruggle

Croydon 11 Aug 15 11.17am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 11.12am

And the exploitation of the era was rampant to the point of cruel and inhumane.

I agree with you as to what motivated Marx and Engles, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The implementation of their ideas resulted in arguably more exploitation, poverty, disease and and squalor than that suffered in Victorian Britain and other industrialised countries.

mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 11 Aug 15 12.54pm
Any vote for Corbyn is a vote for a one party state. end of argument. "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 11 Aug 15 12.54pm

Any vote for Corbyn is a vote for a one party state.

end of argument.

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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ghosteagle 11 Aug 15 12.56pm
Quote dannyh at 11 Aug 2015 12.54pm Any vote for Corbyn is a vote for a one party state. end of argument. Classic satire.
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ghosteagle

11 Aug 15 12.56pm

Quote dannyh at 11 Aug 2015 12.54pm

Any vote for Corbyn is a vote for a one party state.

end of argument.

Classic satire.

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leggedstruggle Croydon 11 Aug 15 1.28pm
I guess one plus of a Corbyn premiership would be that the immigration problem would disappear as nobody would want to come here as the economy disintegrates. mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler
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leggedstruggle

Croydon 11 Aug 15 1.28pm

I guess one plus of a Corbyn premiership would be that the immigration problem would disappear as nobody would want to come here as the economy disintegrates.

mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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ghosteagle 11 Aug 15 1.37pm
Quote leggedstruggle at 11 Aug 2015 1.28pm I guess one plus of a Corbyn premiership would be that the immigration problem would disappear as nobody would want to come here as the economy disintegrates. I'd hope that the immigration problem would be lessened due to the UK refraining from taking badly planned military action against sovereign nations.
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ghosteagle

11 Aug 15 1.37pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 11 Aug 2015 1.28pm

I guess one plus of a Corbyn premiership would be that the immigration problem would disappear as nobody would want to come here as the economy disintegrates.

I'd hope that the immigration problem would be lessened due to the UK refraining from taking badly planned military action against sovereign nations.

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DanH SW2 11 Aug 15 1.40pm
Quote ghosteagle at 11 Aug 2015 12.56pm Quote dannyh at 11 Aug 2015 12.54pm Any vote for Corbyn is a vote for a one party state. end of argument. Classic satire.
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DanH

SW2 11 Aug 15 1.40pm

Quote ghosteagle at 11 Aug 2015 12.56pm

Quote dannyh at 11 Aug 2015 12.54pm

Any vote for Corbyn is a vote for a one party state.

end of argument.

Classic satire.

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 11 Aug 15 2.20pm
Ahhhhhh look everybody DanH has a new errr chum, isnt it sweet. Whens the wedding ladies ? Edited by dannyh (11 Aug 2015 2.20pm) "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 11 Aug 15 2.20pm

Ahhhhhh look everybody DanH has a new errr chum, isnt it sweet.

Whens the wedding ladies ?

Edited by dannyh (11 Aug 2015 2.20pm)

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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ghosteagle 11 Aug 15 2.24pm
Quote dannyh at 11 Aug 2015 2.20pm Ahhhhhh look everybody DanH has a new errr chum, isnt it sweet. Whens the wedding ladies ? Edited by dannyh (11 Aug 2015 2.20pm) Delusional and desperately in need of attention. Ahhh, poor little trooper.
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ghosteagle

11 Aug 15 2.24pm

Quote dannyh at 11 Aug 2015 2.20pm

Ahhhhhh look everybody DanH has a new errr chum, isnt it sweet.

Whens the wedding ladies ?

Edited by dannyh (11 Aug 2015 2.20pm)

Delusional and desperately in need of attention. Ahhh, poor little trooper.

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