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TheJudge  15 Jun 15 12.07pm |
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Quote Superfly at 15 Jun 2015 11.57am
Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 9.58pm
Please debate your point without insults.
It's just banter dude. I am capable of deadly serious debate if you would prefer. I can debate the absurdity of religion all day.
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 EaglesEaglesEagles  15 Jun 15 12.39pm |
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Quote TheJudge at 15 Jun 2015 11.46am
Quote reborn at 14 Jun 2015 9.12pm
You sound like you need a hug....go to the local church, they will be nice to you I promise.
The thing is Reborn, I don't need a hug from your God bothering friends or "Jesus", because I have a real family who I can hug any time I like. It is only your deluded, stupid, smug, blind arrogance that makes you think that people should all seek a religious crutch like the one you clearly need. Your whole basis of belief is flawed and made up by people who didn't know any better. Chill out mate, he was only joking.
I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry. |
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| reborn 15 Jun 15 12.41pm |
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Quote TheJudge at 15 Jun 2015 11.46am
Quote reborn at 14 Jun 2015 9.12pm
You sound like you need a hug....go to the local church, they will be nice to you I promise.
The thing is Reborn, I don't need a hug from your God bothering friends or "Jesus", because I have a real family who I can hug any time I like. It is only your deluded, stupid, smug, blind arrogance that makes you think that people should all seek a religious crutch like the one you clearly need. Your whole basis of belief is flawed and made up by people who didn't know any better.
My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs |
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| Lyons550 Shirley 15 Jun 15 2.06pm |
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Palace is my Religion
The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 15 Jun 15 3.48pm |
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Quote derben at 14 Jun 2015 9.26pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 14 Jun 2015 9.25pm
Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 9.18pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jun 2015 8.57pm
Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 6.14pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jun 2015 5.27pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 10.59pm
Well established principle! Basically what they are saying is, "we don't understand how the universe came into being, so we will just say it happened". Because scientifically we can only demonstrate it as a theory, based on existing understanding, to within fractions of a second after the event (this is one of the principle reasons for particle accelerators to replicate). Its one of a number of theories, that are in competition, the evidence accumilated points towards this being the most probable event, based on what is known. Where was this 'singularity' and how did it come into existence? There wasn't yet a where for it to occur (as the singularity created space-time). As to why a transition occurred creating the universe, that's the big question, can't say I know the answer to that. That's then next big question. There is always a point at which knowledge gives way, to the unknown. For the record, I don't reject the possibility of a 'god', only that of the god presented by Religion and the cases made by those faiths. Divinity is a metaphysical debate, and as such is an argument about abstract associated concepts, rather than quantifiable qualities. Edited by jamiemartin721 (13 Jun 2015 9.01pm) I don't see how there can be this singularity containing the universe in an infinitely condensed form if there is no place for it to exist. Your view on the possibility of a God but a rejection of mankind's religions is pretty much my own view, although I've no idea what your last sentence means. That's the hard bit to get your head around, the dimensional aspects. Space-time is a dimension of reality, but everything that exists in all dimensions, although it may appear differently (and be perceived differently, dependent on the point of perception). Sorry, don't understand your banter old chap. A good starting point in Dimensions is [Link] Essentially as you traverse dimensions, properties of objects change. The same way a line, becomes a square, becomes a cube (3d) and then a tessarat (4d) (as you apply more dimensions). Topologically a similar phenomena applies to physical dimensions. We exist kind of three dimensionally but experience the effect of a fourth dimesion (space and time) at any given instant (where as if we were fourth dimensional, experiencing existence of a 5th dimension, we'd experience time and space as constants, rather than processes of change). So if the 'Big Bang' creates space-time, the universe is capable of existing prior to that, simply in a form in which space-time is non-existant (prior to that event). As you can imagine at these kinds of points, we're talking about a universe that exists in a format we would be incapable of real description, given our entire perception is geared towards three and four dimensions. Also, at this point you get into the really hard kind of maths that sounds more akin to people talking about LSD trips than the stuff you and I know from school
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 15 Jun 15 3.57pm |
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Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 14 Jun 2015 11.52am
Ignorance is bliss. And the hope religion gives to the destitute (false in your opinion) and many others to me is something wholly positive. Yes, but that is also potentially false hope, and a means by which people are manipulated, rightly or wrongly, towards others ends. The value of religion isn't that it can make you feel better or give succor, but that it allows you to experience the world on a different basis and enrich you spiritually. The failure of Religion, most notably montheasitic faiths, is that they are systems by which people are controlled and contained, rather than enlightened and developed. The appropriation of a 'correct' way, used in many Christian faiths, equates any alternative as being ultimately punished by eternal damnation. A threat, essentially, that unless you do as you are commanded by the religion, you shall suffer a fate beyond the most imaginable. As such, the main faiths of the UK, have established spiritual tyranny over people, at the cost of spiritual enrichment. Rather than seek 'truth', they are dictated what truth is, and rather than seeking to understand good, they are told that good and god, is what they are told it is, and that they must accept that even when it contradicts Christ's own teachings. What people believe is irrelevant, its what they do with that belief and how they utilise their beliefs personally and towards others. Not to necessarily allow a person to find their own good, or truth, but to force a gospel of the truth upon them, whether they like it or not.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| derben 15 Jun 15 4.40pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jun 2015 3.57pm
Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 14 Jun 2015 11.52am
Ignorance is bliss. And the hope religion gives to the destitute (false in your opinion) and many others to me is something wholly positive. Yes, but that is also potentially false hope, and a means by which people are manipulated, rightly or wrongly, towards others ends. The value of religion isn't that it can make you feel better or give succor, but that it allows you to experience the world on a different basis and enrich you spiritually. The failure of Religion, most notably montheasitic faiths, is that they are systems by which people are controlled and contained, rather than enlightened and developed. The appropriation of a 'correct' way, used in many Christian faiths, equates any alternative as being ultimately punished by eternal damnation. A threat, essentially, that unless you do as you are commanded by the religion, you shall suffer a fate beyond the most imaginable. As such, the main faiths of the UK, have established spiritual tyranny over people, at the cost of spiritual enrichment. Rather than seek 'truth', they are dictated what truth is, and rather than seeking to understand good, they are told that good and god, is what they are told it is, and that they must accept that even when it contradicts Christ's own teachings. What people believe is irrelevant, its what they do with that belief and how they utilise their beliefs personally and towards others. Not to necessarily allow a person to find their own good, or truth, but to force a gospel of the truth upon them, whether they like it or not. These days, I think a belief in God is optional in the C of E isn't it? I think you have to believe in 'progressive' politics though. You also have to respect 'other faiths' and hold acts of worship with them, even though the Bible says they are all false, so you would think the Archbishop of Canterbury would be criticising them all the time.
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| derben 15 Jun 15 4.46pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jun 2015 3.48pm
Quote derben at 14 Jun 2015 9.26pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 14 Jun 2015 9.25pm
Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 9.18pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jun 2015 8.57pm
Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 6.14pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jun 2015 5.27pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 10.59pm
Well established principle! Basically what they are saying is, "we don't understand how the universe came into being, so we will just say it happened". Because scientifically we can only demonstrate it as a theory, based on existing understanding, to within fractions of a second after the event (this is one of the principle reasons for particle accelerators to replicate). Its one of a number of theories, that are in competition, the evidence accumilated points towards this being the most probable event, based on what is known. Where was this 'singularity' and how did it come into existence? There wasn't yet a where for it to occur (as the singularity created space-time). As to why a transition occurred creating the universe, that's the big question, can't say I know the answer to that. That's then next big question. There is always a point at which knowledge gives way, to the unknown. For the record, I don't reject the possibility of a 'god', only that of the god presented by Religion and the cases made by those faiths. Divinity is a metaphysical debate, and as such is an argument about abstract associated concepts, rather than quantifiable qualities. Edited by jamiemartin721 (13 Jun 2015 9.01pm) I don't see how there can be this singularity containing the universe in an infinitely condensed form if there is no place for it to exist. Your view on the possibility of a God but a rejection of mankind's religions is pretty much my own view, although I've no idea what your last sentence means. That's the hard bit to get your head around, the dimensional aspects. Space-time is a dimension of reality, but everything that exists in all dimensions, although it may appear differently (and be perceived differently, dependent on the point of perception). Sorry, don't understand your banter old chap. A good starting point in Dimensions is [Link] Essentially as you traverse dimensions, properties of objects change. The same way a line, becomes a square, becomes a cube (3d) and then a tessarat (4d) (as you apply more dimensions). Topologically a similar phenomena applies to physical dimensions. We exist kind of three dimensionally but experience the effect of a fourth dimesion (space and time) at any given instant (where as if we were fourth dimensional, experiencing existence of a 5th dimension, we'd experience time and space as constants, rather than processes of change). So if the 'Big Bang' creates space-time, the universe is capable of existing prior to that, simply in a form in which space-time is non-existant (prior to that event). As you can imagine at these kinds of points, we're talking about a universe that exists in a format we would be incapable of real description, given our entire perception is geared towards three and four dimensions. Also, at this point you get into the really hard kind of maths that sounds more akin to people talking about LSD trips than the stuff you and I know from school There is no proof whatsoever that these extra dimensions exist, only theories. It is just used to try to explain where this singularity was before the Big Bang.
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| reborn 15 Jun 15 6.16pm |
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Quote TheJudge at 15 Jun 2015 12.07pm
Quote Superfly at 15 Jun 2015 11.57am
Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 9.58pm
Please debate your point without insults.
It's just banter dude. I am capable of deadly serious debate if you would prefer. I can debate the absurdity of religion all day.
My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs |
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| TheJudge 15 Jun 15 8.19pm |
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Unholy banter.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 15 Jun 15 8.27pm |
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It's banter lead to trouble. Just don't call anyone a t word.
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| EaglesEaglesEagles 15 Jun 15 8.51pm |
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Quote derben at 15 Jun 2015 4.40pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jun 2015 3.57pm
Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 14 Jun 2015 11.52am
Ignorance is bliss. And the hope religion gives to the destitute (false in your opinion) and many others to me is something wholly positive. Yes, but that is also potentially false hope, and a means by which people are manipulated, rightly or wrongly, towards others ends. The value of religion isn't that it can make you feel better or give succor, but that it allows you to experience the world on a different basis and enrich you spiritually. The failure of Religion, most notably montheasitic faiths, is that they are systems by which people are controlled and contained, rather than enlightened and developed. The appropriation of a 'correct' way, used in many Christian faiths, equates any alternative as being ultimately punished by eternal damnation. A threat, essentially, that unless you do as you are commanded by the religion, you shall suffer a fate beyond the most imaginable. As such, the main faiths of the UK, have established spiritual tyranny over people, at the cost of spiritual enrichment. Rather than seek 'truth', they are dictated what truth is, and rather than seeking to understand good, they are told that good and god, is what they are told it is, and that they must accept that even when it contradicts Christ's own teachings. What people believe is irrelevant, its what they do with that belief and how they utilise their beliefs personally and towards others. Not to necessarily allow a person to find their own good, or truth, but to force a gospel of the truth upon them, whether they like it or not. These days, I think a belief in God is optional in the C of E isn't it? I think you have to believe in 'progressive' politics though. You also have to respect 'other faiths' and hold acts of worship with them, even though the Bible says they are all false, so you would think the Archbishop of Canterbury would be criticising them all the time. Firstly, with regard to Jamie's citing of a section of one of my previous posts, I would just like to qualify its employment by him. The reason for this is that I did go on to say I was only writing in these base terms because it was on this level that the OP I was responding to was operating in his attitude towards all religions. I don't think such hope promoted is deliberately false or should be merited for being false yet positive. I suppose that isn't really the point of Jamie's own post but it's necessary for me to clarify that. The problem with it is that, it is ultimately self defeating if it has any purpose in that it strives to be some sort of open intellectual platform for debate and respect. While respect is a great thing and should be maintained in attitudes towards faith, completely open-ended liberalism in this way cannot really establish any truths. I personally am in favour of establishing moral truths. If that makes me a close-minded individual then so be it. However, I think that one thinks on quite subjective grounds if one regards any monotheistic religion that sees some truths in another faith but believes it is essentially wrong as being in itself backward and wrong to try and establish dogma and correct practice. Religions do change naturally throughout the centuries but if the religious members of such a faith believe in revelation and the historical certainty of elements within religious texts, then I think it foolish for them not to try and establish what is correct. If they didn't, they could potentially leave the faithful without aim, confidence or certainty in anything. Not a particularly constructive or attractive proposition for me. The idea of spiritual tyranny could easily be termed categorical truths. Just because you or I don't believe in X or Y doesn't mean the faithful believe they are being manipulated or potentially condemned. People generally seek personal guidance and group understanding to establish their own beliefs. Only academics try generally to push the boat out a bit in any field of study. I think Jamie, that you expect and hope for too much of the human race in their search for understanding. Edited by EaglesEaglesEagles (15 Jun 2015 8.54pm)
I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry. |
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