Gaza Strip 'invades' Israel.

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Gaza Strip 'invades' Israel.

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silvertop Portishead 19 Dec 23 1.05pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow Three Israeli hostages were mistakenly killed by the IDF yesterday, as reported by an Israeli military official. The hostages were shirtless, waving white flags and had written ‘SOS, help, three hostages’ on the wall in Hebrew. Separately, an Israeli sniper has killed two women in a Catholic Church in Gaza - the church has been put under siege, no food or power, tanks and snipers surrounding it with over 100 civilians trapped inside - these reports from the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem. Edited by EverybodyDannsNow (18 Dec 2023 6.29pm) This could be a tipping point. What was missing from Ben Wallace's column about NI (which I thought was a good, balanced article, by the way) was that one of the reasons for peace in NI was 9/11. Americans had experienced local nut job right acts of nut jobbery, but a terrorist attack from foreign agents on their soil was new and horrific. Suddenly the penny dropped for many Irish diaspora that the money they had been pouring into liberating Ireland was not going into the accounts of grieving widows of British imperialism but actually into the pockets of murdering terrorists. Imagine! The money running dry, the IRA displayed a lightening 180 degree turn around. Israel depends on its existence from the US and, in particular, from the Christian right. An unholy alliance if ever. Not blessed with large brains, sadly they also vote. But I imagine the existence of Palestinian Christians must have come as a surprise as big as US Irish nationalists discovering that the majority of the NI population are actually protestant unionists. They represent about 9% and are being blown back to the Old Testament by the very bombs they have supplied. I said it could be a tipping point. We need the US Christian right to understand this before their support wanes. Like I said, not blessed with intelligence...
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silvertop

Portishead 19 Dec 23 1.05pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Three Israeli hostages were mistakenly killed by the IDF yesterday, as reported by an Israeli military official.

The hostages were shirtless, waving white flags and had written ‘SOS, help, three hostages’ on the wall in Hebrew.

Separately, an Israeli sniper has killed two women in a Catholic Church in Gaza - the church has been put under siege, no food or power, tanks and snipers surrounding it with over 100 civilians trapped inside - these reports from the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

Edited by EverybodyDannsNow (18 Dec 2023 6.29pm)

This could be a tipping point.

What was missing from Ben Wallace's column about NI (which I thought was a good, balanced article, by the way) was that one of the reasons for peace in NI was 9/11. Americans had experienced local nut job right acts of nut jobbery, but a terrorist attack from foreign agents on their soil was new and horrific. Suddenly the penny dropped for many Irish diaspora that the money they had been pouring into liberating Ireland was not going into the accounts of grieving widows of British imperialism but actually into the pockets of murdering terrorists. Imagine! The money running dry, the IRA displayed a lightening 180 degree turn around.

Israel depends on its existence from the US and, in particular, from the Christian right. An unholy alliance if ever. Not blessed with large brains, sadly they also vote. But I imagine the existence of Palestinian Christians must have come as a surprise as big as US Irish nationalists discovering that the majority of the NI population are actually protestant unionists. They represent about 9% and are being blown back to the Old Testament by the very bombs they have supplied.

I said it could be a tipping point. We need the US Christian right to understand this before their support wanes. Like I said, not blessed with intelligence...

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Hrolf The Ganger 19 Dec 23 1.41pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow I sympathise with the side being murdered in their tens of thousands, yes. The bit in bold is more illogical nonsense - it suggests that any nation state that suffers a terrorist attack has the right to simply ignore international law, commit as many atrocities as they would like and displace millions of innocent people in response. The world has not worked like that for many many decades. I completely understand the practical reasons why Israel is doing what they are doing - I’m not sure why you keep repeating this bit under some weird guise of telling ‘the hard truths’ - every genocidal regime in history could sit down and tell you why they are doing what they’re doing and why their cause is right - that doesn’t make it acceptable. I'm not suggesting that it is acceptable. Again, that is your prejudice. I'm merely pointing out the reality. The trouble is that Palestine is run by the 'other team' and unfortunately, the dead civilians will be portrayed as collateral damage. We have already seen that the Israeli army aren't too fussy about who they shoot. I expect that Biden is getting frustrated with the level of civilian deaths, as it's not a good look with election time getting nearer and the civilised world looking on. Sadly, despite your complaints, the uncivilised world must also take a large part of the responsibility for what is happening. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (19 Dec 2023 1.42pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

19 Dec 23 1.41pm

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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I sympathise with the side being murdered in their tens of thousands, yes.

The bit in bold is more illogical nonsense - it suggests that any nation state that suffers a terrorist attack has the right to simply ignore international law, commit as many atrocities as they would like and displace millions of innocent people in response. The world has not worked like that for many many decades.

I completely understand the practical reasons why Israel is doing what they are doing - I’m not sure why you keep repeating this bit under some weird guise of telling ‘the hard truths’ - every genocidal regime in history could sit down and tell you why they are doing what they’re doing and why their cause is right - that doesn’t make it acceptable.

I'm not suggesting that it is acceptable. Again, that is your prejudice. I'm merely pointing out the reality.

The trouble is that Palestine is run by the 'other team' and unfortunately, the dead civilians will be portrayed as collateral damage.
We have already seen that the Israeli army aren't too fussy about who they shoot. I expect that Biden is getting frustrated with the level of civilian deaths, as it's not a good look with election time getting nearer and the civilised world looking on.

Sadly, despite your complaints, the uncivilised world must also take a large part of the responsibility for what is happening.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (19 Dec 2023 1.42pm)

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silvertop Portishead 19 Dec 23 2.34pm
Gaza has 2 logistical problems as far as Israel is concerned. It has a very high population density. Israel finds a Hamas hiding place. It fires a precision missile. It takes out the fighters. Sadly it cannot avoid killing 20 innocent people who live within a few yards. Israel describes this wrongly as using the non combatants as human shields. Actually they just happen to live cheek to cheek. An inconvenient consequence of the creation of Israel. It also has a disproportionate number of people under 18. When those bombs drop, Israel will certainly kill loads of kids. It is impossible not to. Israel's position is impossible.
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silvertop

Portishead 19 Dec 23 2.34pm

Gaza has 2 logistical problems as far as Israel is concerned.

It has a very high population density. Israel finds a Hamas hiding place. It fires a precision missile. It takes out the fighters. Sadly it cannot avoid killing 20 innocent people who live within a few yards. Israel describes this wrongly as using the non combatants as human shields. Actually they just happen to live cheek to cheek. An inconvenient consequence of the creation of Israel.

It also has a disproportionate number of people under 18. When those bombs drop, Israel will certainly kill loads of kids. It is impossible not to.

Israel's position is impossible.

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 19 Dec 23 2.59pm
Originally posted by silvertop Gaza has 2 logistical problems as far as Israel is concerned. It has a very high population density. Israel finds a Hamas hiding place. It fires a precision missile. It takes out the fighters. Sadly it cannot avoid killing 20 innocent people who live within a few yards. Israel describes this wrongly as using the non combatants as human shields. Actually they just happen to live cheek to cheek. An inconvenient consequence of the creation of Israel. It also has a disproportionate number of people under 18. When those bombs drop, Israel will certainly kill loads of kids. It is impossible not to. Israel's position is impossible. I think you're being a little generous to the IDF - obviously population density and demographics are very relevant to civilian death tolls, but so is the volume and type of ammunition being used. Nearly half of the air-to-ground munitions that Israel has used in Gaza in its war with Hamas since October 7 have been unguided, otherwise known as “dumb bombs,” according to a new US intelligence assessment. The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided. For some context; the US has deliberately phased out it's own use of unguided bombs over the last decade. In terms of volume, during the War in Afghanistan the US broke it's own record (since they started counting in 2006) for volume of bombs dropped in a calendar year with 7243 bombs dropped in 2019. As you'll note above, the IDF have dropped 29,000 in a little over 2 months.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 19 Dec 23 2.59pm

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Originally posted by silvertop

Gaza has 2 logistical problems as far as Israel is concerned.

It also has a disproportionate number of people under 18. When those bombs drop, Israel will certainly kill loads of kids. It is impossible not to.

Israel's position is impossible.

I think you're being a little generous to the IDF - obviously population density and demographics are very relevant to civilian death tolls, but so is the volume and type of ammunition being used.

Nearly half of the air-to-ground munitions that Israel has used in Gaza in its war with Hamas since October 7 have been unguided, otherwise known as “dumb bombs,” according to a new US intelligence assessment.

The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided.

For some context; the US has deliberately phased out it's own use of unguided bombs over the last decade.

In terms of volume, during the War in Afghanistan the US broke it's own record (since they started counting in 2006) for volume of bombs dropped in a calendar year with 7243 bombs dropped in 2019.

As you'll note above, the IDF have dropped 29,000 in a little over 2 months.

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Stirlingsays 19 Dec 23 3.40pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow In the context of this conversation I don’t really want to get into my views on Bloody Sunday - it was just an example. I don’t think WW2 is a particularly good yardstick for morality in war. There were atrocities committed all over the place and you had numerous leaders with zero regard for civilian life. There were an estimated 45,000 civilians death in the War in Afghanistan which lasted the best part of 20 years. The IDF are almost at half that total after two months. Yep, I could never go along with what they are doing. I usually agree with Douglas Murray but on this he's playing fiddles like he's about to run out of roofs. Perhaps he thinks that it'll see rich Jewish donors start to back conservatives.....I think some of that will happen and to a small degree it already does....but in truth those guys are true believers and they while they might abandon funding diverse woke, they aren't going to back white 'wasps'. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Dec 2023 3.43pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

19 Dec 23 3.40pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

In the context of this conversation I don’t really want to get into my views on Bloody Sunday - it was just an example.

I don’t think WW2 is a particularly good yardstick for morality in war. There were atrocities committed all over the place and you had numerous leaders with zero regard for civilian life.

There were an estimated 45,000 civilians death in the War in Afghanistan which lasted the best part of 20 years.

The IDF are almost at half that total after two months.

Yep, I could never go along with what they are doing.

I usually agree with Douglas Murray but on this he's playing fiddles like he's about to run out of roofs.

Perhaps he thinks that it'll see rich Jewish donors start to back conservatives.....I think some of that will happen and to a small degree it already does....but in truth those guys are true believers and they while they might abandon funding diverse woke, they aren't going to back white 'wasps'.

Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Dec 2023 3.43pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steeleye20 Croydon 19 Dec 23 7.52pm
'Biden may alienate young voters with handling of Gaza conflict, poll finds'. That's hardly surprising. They don't want their country to be complicit in the scenes they watch on TV every day.
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steeleye20

Croydon 19 Dec 23 7.52pm

'Biden may alienate young voters with handling of Gaza conflict, poll finds'.

That's hardly surprising.

They don't want their country to be complicit in the scenes they watch on TV every day.

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silvertop Portishead 20 Dec 23 10.43am
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow I think you're being a little generous to the IDF - obviously population density and demographics are very relevant to civilian death tolls, but so is the volume and type of ammunition being used. Nearly half of the air-to-ground munitions that Israel has used in Gaza in its war with Hamas since October 7 have been unguided, otherwise known as “dumb bombs,” according to a new US intelligence assessment. The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided. For some context; the US has deliberately phased out it's own use of unguided bombs over the last decade. In terms of volume, during the War in Afghanistan the US broke it's own record (since they started counting in 2006) for volume of bombs dropped in a calendar year with 7243 bombs dropped in 2019. As you'll note above, the IDF have dropped 29,000 in a little over 2 months. Good points. The other point we are both avoiding is the Israeli reluctance to take out any Hamas enclaves through infantry alone. It would significantly reduce the civilian death count but simultaneously expand the number of body bags returned to Israel.
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silvertop

Portishead 20 Dec 23 10.43am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I think you're being a little generous to the IDF - obviously population density and demographics are very relevant to civilian death tolls, but so is the volume and type of ammunition being used.

The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided.

For some context; the US has deliberately phased out it's own use of unguided bombs over the last decade.

In terms of volume, during the War in Afghanistan the US broke it's own record (since they started counting in 2006) for volume of bombs dropped in a calendar year with 7243 bombs dropped in 2019.

As you'll note above, the IDF have dropped 29,000 in a little over 2 months.

Good points. The other point we are both avoiding is the Israeli reluctance to take out any Hamas enclaves through infantry alone. It would significantly reduce the civilian death count but simultaneously expand the number of body bags returned to Israel.

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 21 Dec 23 2.32pm
There seems to be collusion in delaying the aid the Palestinian civilians so desperately need. Disease, exposure and hunger is going to kill a large amount of humans over the Winter. Shame on Israel. Shame on Western Governments. I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 21 Dec 23 2.32pm

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There seems to be collusion in delaying the aid the Palestinian civilians so desperately need. Disease, exposure and hunger is going to kill a large amount of humans over the Winter.
Shame on Israel. Shame on Western Governments.

I disengage, I turn the page.

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Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 21 Dec 23 2.49pm
Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly There seems to be collusion in delaying the aid the Palestinian civilians so desperately need. Disease, exposure and hunger is going to kill a large amount of humans over the Winter. Shame on Israel. Shame on Western Governments. …shame on Egypt… hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing.
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Behind Enemy Lines

Sussex 21 Dec 23 2.49pm

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Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

…shame on Egypt…

hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing.

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steeleye20 Croydon 21 Dec 23 2.52pm
Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly There seems to be collusion in delaying the aid the Palestinian civilians so desperately need. Disease, exposure and hunger is going to kill a large amount of humans over the Winter. Shame on Israel. Shame on Western Governments. Why didn't they airlift supplies straight in? No Berlin airlift here, and they have their aircraft carrier fleet off-shore. Edited by steeleye20 (21 Dec 2023 2.55pm)
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steeleye20

Croydon 21 Dec 23 2.52pm

Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

Why didn't they airlift supplies straight in?

No Berlin airlift here, and they have their aircraft carrier fleet off-shore.

Edited by steeleye20 (21 Dec 2023 2.55pm)

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Glazier#1 21 Dec 23 10.44pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Why didn't they airlift supplies straight in? No Berlin airlift here, and they have their aircraft carrier fleet off-shore. Edited by steeleye20 (21 Dec 2023 2.55pm) Quite. Politics. Edited by Glazier#1 (21 Dec 2023 10.45pm)
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Glazier#1

21 Dec 23 10.44pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Why didn't they airlift supplies straight in?

No Berlin airlift here, and they have their aircraft carrier fleet off-shore.

Edited by steeleye20 (21 Dec 2023 2.55pm)

Quite. Politics.

Edited by Glazier#1 (21 Dec 2023 10.45pm)

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 22 Dec 23 8.13am
Originally posted by steeleye20 Why didn't they airlift supplies straight in? No Berlin airlift here, and they have their aircraft carrier fleet off-shore. Edited by steeleye20 (21 Dec 2023 2.55pm) Excuses for not helping people. Denying fuel, electricity, medical aid, blowing their towns and cities to bits. If we give the aid,...it will go to HAMAS. 20,000 (estimated) civilian deaths. What figure do we reach before it is 'too much' ? I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 22 Dec 23 8.13am

Originally posted by steeleye20

Why didn't they airlift supplies straight in?

No Berlin airlift here, and they have their aircraft carrier fleet off-shore.

Edited by steeleye20 (21 Dec 2023 2.55pm)

Excuses for not helping people. Denying fuel, electricity, medical aid, blowing their towns and cities to bits. If we give the aid,...it will go to HAMAS.
20,000 (estimated) civilian deaths. What figure do we reach before it is 'too much' ?

I disengage, I turn the page.

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