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"There isn’t a single soldier who served in Northern Ireland who didn’t curse, at one time, the events of Bloody Sunday under his breath. The hours spent in the bogs of South Armagh, or the back streets of West Belfast were testament to a conflict that had been ignited by the events on that day in 1972.

It took more than two decades for the Troubles to come to an end and it did so when Nationalists recognised that the IRA didn’t have its wellbeing and economic interests at heart and when British governments accepted that while you could deliver security you couldn’t arrest your way out of the problems and political schisms. As sure as night follows day, history shows us that radicalisation follows oppression.

Northern Ireland internment taught us that a disproportionate response by the state can serve as a terrorist organisation’s best recruiting sergeant. For many, watching the events in Gaza unfold each day makes us more and more uncomfortable.

Let me start by saying I am unequivocal in my condemnation of Hamas, not only for what it did on October 7, but also for what came before. Its charter reads like the constitution of a jihadist Salafi organisation. It is anti-Semitic and anti-democratic. It isn’t interested in peaceful co-existence with Israel, or Egypt, for that matter.

Hamas is not interested in a two-state solution either. No – it is interested in a religious war with Jews, using Palestinians as cannon fodder. So, I absolutely defend Israel’s right to defend itself.

But I also believe strongly in our obligations under the Geneva Conventions and expect all signatories to uphold them. Going after Hamas is legitimate; obliterating vast swathes of Gaza is not. Using proportionate force is legal, but collective punishment and forced movement of civilians is not.

We are entering a dangerous period now where Israel’s original legal authority of self-defence is being undermined by its own actions. It is making the mistake of losing its moral authority alongside its legal one.

I am sure that the shame Benjamin Netanyahu feels for not foreseeing the October 7 attacks is deep, especially for someone who presented himself as a security hawk and tough guy. But perhaps that shame is driving him to lose sight of the long term.

Netanyahu’s mistake was to miss the attack in the first place. But if he thinks a killing rage will rectify matters, then he is very wrong. His methods will not solve this problem. In fact, I believe his tactics will fuel the conflict for another 50 years. His actions are radicalising Muslim youth across the globe.

When all this is over, and the IDF withdraws from what is left of Gaza, there will still be Hamas. All the action will have achieved is the extinction, not of the extremists, but the voice of the moderate Palestinians who do want a two-state solution.

International sympathy will have expired and Israel will be forced to exist in an even greater state of siege.

Before anyone says I am calling for a ceasefire with Hamas – I am not. You can’t have a ceasefire with Hamas unless they are prepared to declare one; even then they would have to pledge to modify their charter to do so.

What I am saying is Israel needs to stop this crude and indiscriminate method of attack. And it needs to combat Hamas differently.

Israel needs to recognise it has time on its side. It holds all the cards – from control of the air to control of the border. It is easy to wonder what has happened to the wise Israeli politicians of old. They would have never missed the signs of the attack nor would they have surrendered to political blackmail from militant illegal settlers. They would have never played footsie with Putin, while Russian money fuelled the Iranian rocket and drone industry. They understood balance in the region and practically wrote the book on “divide and rule”.

But lack of wisdom in a new generation of Israel politicians has led them to a place where they act like a bull in a China shop – crashing from one crisis to another."

Rt Hon Ben Wallace, Conservative MP for Wyre and Preston North who served as Secretary of State for Defence from 2019 to 2023.

Also, Ben Wallace in that article is basically presenting the official western political position on this war.

He's trying to square the circle that can't really be squared and still call yourself a social liberal and egalitarian....I'm neither of those things (because they don't work) and even I won't defend what's happening out of sheer basic humanity.

Hamas can't be separated from Palestinians, because they are Palestinians. There can be differences within every group but it's hypocritical to say that Israel can go berserk when it's attacked but when the Palestinians get killed every week they should turn the other cheek.....Unrealistic.

Israel know this, which is why they are doing what they are doing.

The fist brings the fist, brings the gun, brings the tank, brings the cruise missile and so on....Oh I remember to be against that means I'm an appeaser...So much for 'blessed are the peacemakers'....now it's 'feck the peacemakers to hell'.

I'm still rather skeptical that Mossad didn't know.....someone farts and they know about it, they were even bugging Trump in his own White House but they didn't know about this....must have been planned and prepared for, for months.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Dec 2023 5.58pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

He's a fascinating figure.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Talking from my perspective in terms of how Israel treat the Palestinians....and how I think they should treat the Palestinians I make some observations....well, perhaps not 'should' but probably will.

Israel only exists because of the second world war, and because the National Socialists took a decision to first harass, disenfranchise, corral and then in 1941 quietly (they hid it from their own people) murder as many Jews as possible.

So, while I won't use the left's tired old meme of calling everything Hitler, I do find it something of a dark irony that the Israelis find themselves coming to the same conclusion that Hitler came to, but just about a different set of people....Hitler decided that Germany couldn't continue with their influence and history rhymes yet again.

In modern day times though Israel can't just eliminate their unwanted populations with every scream being put onto a TV screen, instead they were taking the underhand tactic of pushing them out over time. However, this attack means that they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to clear house...by bombing it...well that's how they see it.

What's my attitude? Well, I understand why the Israeli government is doing what it's doing.....but do I support the means....nope.

For me it's like the illegal migrants coming over on boats from France. Many people on my side of the fence say you should let them drown as that would stop it....It wouldn't stop it because they don't all sink but I understand the sentiment.

However, I say no....we don't knowingly let people drown....That is against humanity.

However, none of these people coming here have a birthright or history to these islands. Most of them will work against or and a few will hate us.

I say 'not in my name' to the neo communists and third worldists who want to dilute and destroy my country by turning it into a refugee camp for the world.

None of them are native British/English and most of them won't get to stay here (we will keep the the Ben Habibs and the anglophiles amongst them).....At some point there will be justice, in this world or the next.

But what do Israel do about their intractable problem? What is their 'final solution'. Well, we could go on about fantasy like Ben Wallace's warm words for utopians and talk about a two state solution or we could talk about the reality of the Greater Israel that's actually going to happen and they have been quietly inching towards for decades...It's not what someone says, it's what they do....All the boomer and Gen X western politicians are all going to support it anyway.

They are flattening Gaza and so you would think that after Hamas is done with they will expel the Palestinians from that land, just like the Romans did to them. This is what they want to do when you listen to them.

Who takes them? The Arabs won't....Well, there's big brother Biden....he'd probably send them to Florida or maybe the Israelis could push them into the Sinal and risk the war with Egypt, while America have two carrier fleets near by.

However that would take weeks to do and....man that would be it's own disaster....Do they seriously expect Egypt to just watch them do it? No, probably not.

No after flattening Gaza and turning it into a starvation zone they essentially stop anything coming into Gaza...destroy all the tunnels and don't allow any aid in.....That way the Palestinians will be forced to leave and the UN will take them as a rescue mission....From there the Jews don't care where they go. They will want to go to Europe/America if they can't stay in their land but they will probably pay Africa to take them over time....The US taxpayer will essentially foot the bill.

Do I support any of it....Feck no....But then again to paraphrase Einstein, once you create the Jewish state you have wars.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Dec 2023 9.09pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Perhaps it's that famous IQ they talk about.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

You spend a lot of time criticising Israel, which I don't necessarily disagree with, but you don't say too much about Hamas.
Let's not forget why Israel were given justification to invade Gaza. You don't really believe that Hamas didn't want an escalation?