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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Dec 21 9.47pm
Originally posted by Vaibow Spot on.. and it's lazy to blame the unjabbed... the majority of the unjabbed are very healthy people, who have researched more than most. I feel a lot of people just don't like the fact they buckled and said yes to something they just don't need... and are jealous of those that are fine, perfectly healthy and have control of their lives... think about, who is more free? The person who did what they were told and continue to, or those that said no and live by their own rules? He'll be glad of your support as he is a bit lonely here at the moment as his No1 fan is on a break as the heat got a little too much for him. When the unvaccinated get excluded from most aspects of life, at least you can comfort one another. Maybe get a room together. If you can find anywhere that will take you. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 12 Dec 21 9.47pm

Originally posted by Vaibow

Spot on..

and it's lazy to blame the unjabbed... the majority of the unjabbed are very healthy people, who have researched more than most.

I feel a lot of people just don't like the fact they buckled and said yes to something they just don't need... and are jealous of those that are fine, perfectly healthy and have control of their lives... think about, who is more free? The person who did what they were told and continue to, or those that said no and live by their own rules?

He'll be glad of your support as he is a bit lonely here at the moment as his No1 fan is on a break as the heat got a little too much for him.

When the unvaccinated get excluded from most aspects of life, at least you can comfort one another. Maybe get a room together. If you can find anywhere that will take you.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays 12 Dec 21 9.49pm
Originally posted by DanH It’s so tiring. The overwhelming scientific evidence and consensus amongst experts has been the opposite to most of everything that you’ve posted throughout the entire pandemic. The fact you’ve had to try and champion someone multiple times who has a background in a completely unrelated sphere of medicine shows just how weak your position is. Your position has always been based on your misguided sense of ‘liberty’, despite your position ironically helping to slow down our exit from this bloody virus and getting all our freedoms back. I just hope people don’t read your posts and are influenced into not getting jabbed if they are still unsure. A misguided sense of 'liberty'.....wow.....you would have made an excellent Maoist. Would you like debate to be closed down or something? Anyway Dan, It should be noted that I have never advocated that those that feel vulnerable or that are elderly shouldn't take a vaccine. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Dec 21 9.49pm

Originally posted by DanH

It’s so tiring. The overwhelming scientific evidence and consensus amongst experts has been the opposite to most of everything that you’ve posted throughout the entire pandemic. The fact you’ve had to try and champion someone multiple times who has a background in a completely unrelated sphere of medicine shows just how weak your position is.

Your position has always been based on your misguided sense of ‘liberty’, despite your position ironically helping to slow down our exit from this bloody virus and getting all our freedoms back. I just hope people don’t read your posts and are influenced into not getting jabbed if they are still unsure.

A misguided sense of 'liberty'.....wow.....you would have made an excellent Maoist. Would you like debate to be closed down or something?

Anyway Dan, It should be noted that I have never advocated that those that feel vulnerable or that are elderly shouldn't take a vaccine.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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DanH SW2 12 Dec 21 10.01pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays A misguided sense of 'liberty'.....wow.....you would have made an excellent Maoist. Would you like debate to be closed down or something? Anyway Dan, It should be noted that I have never advocated that those that feel vulnerable or that are elderly shouldn't take a vaccine. It is completely misguided. A champion of liberty yet you voted for the biggest removal of my freedoms I could imagine back in 2016. A champion of liberty yet you don’t believe that women should be able to have a choice over decisions when it comes to their own bodies. A champion of liberty yet by choosing not to listen to people far smarter than you it keeps the virus in circulation longer, sends more people to hospital, keeps us having to live with the virus longer and not getting all our freedoms back, and worst of all, people losing their ultimate freedom of actually being alive by not being vaccinated. You’re a libertarian in the same sense that a house cat is - likes to think he is completely independent and self-sufficient but just doesn’t understand that if it wasn’t the world around him working in ways he doesn’t understand he wouldn’t last a week.
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DanH

SW2 12 Dec 21 10.01pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

A misguided sense of 'liberty'.....wow.....you would have made an excellent Maoist. Would you like debate to be closed down or something?

Anyway Dan, It should be noted that I have never advocated that those that feel vulnerable or that are elderly shouldn't take a vaccine.

It is completely misguided. A champion of liberty yet you voted for the biggest removal of my freedoms I could imagine back in 2016. A champion of liberty yet you don’t believe that women should be able to have a choice over decisions when it comes to their own bodies. A champion of liberty yet by choosing not to listen to people far smarter than you it keeps the virus in circulation longer, sends more people to hospital, keeps us having to live with the virus longer and not getting all our freedoms back, and worst of all, people losing their ultimate freedom of actually being alive by not being vaccinated.

You’re a libertarian in the same sense that a house cat is - likes to think he is completely independent and self-sufficient but just doesn’t understand that if it wasn’t the world around him working in ways he doesn’t understand he wouldn’t last a week.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Dec 21 10.02pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays People have been trained to accept less liberty and control and to trust elites much more....I can't express how serious I think that is....I regard these as small steps towards what is ever increasing centralised control. I know that some think centralised control is inevitable anyway but I seriously believe that we should question ourselves as to whether that is a future we actually want or morally support. People might support vaccine passports because they think it's temporary but have their really thought it through or are they just trusting elites because otherwise people finger point at them. Would these people trust the elites so much that they would let them control their money, how they earn it and...what you can and can't buy, eat, rent and all the rest of it restricting their freedoms far more than now. Once you accept one form of control you have trained yourself into acceptance and these steps become a lot easier. I remember people calling those talking about vaccine passports as conspiracy theorists, now the same people cheer them on. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Dec 2021 9.13pm) As this is the type of argument being circulated on the myriad of "alt-right" websites and by those self-important YouTubers no-one ought to be surprised that you parrot it here. These attacks on the "elites" as some kind of undemocratic super-power existing across national borders are farcical. We are trying to deal with a pandemic. It's not complicated to understand, and no reason at all to construct a wild conspiracy theory about it to try to justify your non-compliance. You were a teacher, so you of all people ought to know that 2+2 always equals 4 and no amount of convoluted doublespeak can change that. If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it almost certainly isn't an ostrich. This is a pandemic. We need people to all get vaccinated. Stop the silly, selfish arguments and just do it. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 12 Dec 21 10.02pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

People have been trained to accept less liberty and control and to trust elites much more....I can't express how serious I think that is....I regard these as small steps towards what is ever increasing centralised control.

I know that some think centralised control is inevitable anyway but I seriously believe that we should question ourselves as to whether that is a future we actually want or morally support.

People might support vaccine passports because they think it's temporary but have their really thought it through or are they just trusting elites because otherwise people finger point at them. Would these people trust the elites so much that they would let them control their money, how they earn it and...what you can and can't buy, eat, rent and all the rest of it restricting their freedoms far more than now.

Once you accept one form of control you have trained yourself into acceptance and these steps become a lot easier. I remember people calling those talking about vaccine passports as conspiracy theorists, now the same people cheer them on.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Dec 2021 9.13pm)

As this is the type of argument being circulated on the myriad of "alt-right" websites and by those self-important YouTubers no-one ought to be surprised that you parrot it here.

These attacks on the "elites" as some kind of undemocratic super-power existing across national borders are farcical.

We are trying to deal with a pandemic. It's not complicated to understand, and no reason at all to construct a wild conspiracy theory about it to try to justify your non-compliance.

You were a teacher, so you of all people ought to know that 2+2 always equals 4 and no amount of convoluted doublespeak can change that.

If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it almost certainly isn't an ostrich.

This is a pandemic. We need people to all get vaccinated. Stop the silly, selfish arguments and just do it.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays 12 Dec 21 10.14pm
Originally posted by DanH It is completely misguided. A champion of liberty yet you voted for the biggest removal of my freedoms I could imagine back in 2016. A champion of liberty yet you don’t believe that women should be able to have a choice over decisions when it comes to their own bodies. A champion of liberty yet by choosing not to listen to people far smarter than you it keeps the virus in circulation longer, sends more people to hospital, keeps us having to live with the virus longer and not getting all our freedoms back, and worst of all, people losing their ultimate freedom of actually being alive by not being vaccinated. You’re a libertarian in the same sense that a house cat is - likes to think he is completely independent and self-sufficient but just doesn’t understand that if it wasn’t the world around him working in ways he doesn’t understand he wouldn’t last a week. Do we really want a deep dive into what my political ideas are? I'm not a pure libertarian, just as I'm not a pure egalitarian both for the reasons that experience and observation has shown me that they don't work....pipe dreams, of the two libertarianism has more of my respect but it would be wrong to say I think it wholly works. However, there is a lot in libertarianism that I respect and any criticisms I have of it always come with that. I do respect free speech, yours and mine, and I do think that real freedom means that the leftist has a society to live in just as the social conservative should have...not necessary the same society perhaps but I don't believe in authoritarianism without fair choice. I don't believe in societies where people live in fear without choice....as much decentralization as possible..just as if you want a censored experience you have the bbs and if you want a more free one Hol. Yes, I'm pro life and there are contradictions there that I'm not comfortable with....however you're apparently comfortable with viewing human life as disposable even at over 20 weeks so I ask who is really interested in what liberty here. Anyway lets not get distracted....this isn't about me. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Dec 2021 10.37pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Dec 21 10.14pm

Originally posted by DanH

Do we really want a deep dive into what my political ideas are?

I'm not a pure libertarian, just as I'm not a pure egalitarian both for the reasons that experience and observation has shown me that they don't work....pipe dreams, of the two libertarianism has more of my respect but it would be wrong to say I think it wholly works.

However, there is a lot in libertarianism that I respect and any criticisms I have of it always come with that.

I do respect free speech, yours and mine, and I do think that real freedom means that the leftist has a society to live in just as the social conservative should have...not necessary the same society perhaps but I don't believe in authoritarianism without fair choice. I don't believe in societies where people live in fear without choice....as much decentralization as possible..just as if you want a censored experience you have the bbs and if you want a more free one Hol.

Yes, I'm pro life and there are contradictions there that I'm not comfortable with....however you're apparently comfortable with viewing human life as disposable even at over 20 weeks so I ask who is really interested in what liberty here.

Anyway lets not get distracted....this isn't about me.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Dec 2021 10.37pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Dec 21 10.17pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays 'we should do things for the good of others, including taking medication. ' What a load of BS. Do you think these people were giving blood each month for others? Do you think they have donated organs they don't need so that others might live? I respect both of those contributions but I don't expect that people should be expected to. Such a fake. Imagine being aligned with this guy. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Dec 2021 9.34pm) People will note, I hope, that there is a difference between should and must. There is a big difference between a moral imperative and compulsion. People should join the organ donation register, as the responsible action of a member of society. Indeed, I approve of the moves to require an opt-out rather than an opt-in. Same with blood donation. We all should, if we can. Those who follow my reasoning will know I am not in favour of mandatory vaccination. What I am in favour of is social exclusion for the unvaccinated. Moral pressure is what I recommend. It's happening, and working, elsewhere. I expect us to follow. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 12 Dec 21 10.17pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

'we should do things for the good of others, including taking medication. '

What a load of BS.

Do you think these people were giving blood each month for others?

Do you think they have donated organs they don't need so that others might live?

I respect both of those contributions but I don't expect that people should be expected to.

Such a fake.

Imagine being aligned with this guy.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Dec 2021 9.34pm)

People will note, I hope, that there is a difference between should and must. There is a big difference between a moral imperative and compulsion.

People should join the organ donation register, as the responsible action of a member of society. Indeed, I approve of the moves to require an opt-out rather than an opt-in.

Same with blood donation. We all should, if we can.

Those who follow my reasoning will know I am not in favour of mandatory vaccination. What I am in favour of is social exclusion for the unvaccinated. Moral pressure is what I recommend.

It's happening, and working, elsewhere. I expect us to follow.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Dec 21 10.48pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Do we really want a deep dive into what my political ideas are? I'm not a pure libertarian, just as I'm not a pure egalitarian both for the reasons that experience and observation has shown me that they don't work....pipe dreams, of the two libertarianism has more of my respect but it would be wrong to say I think it wholly works. However, there is a lot in libertarianism that I respect and any criticisms I have of it always come with that. I do respect free speech, yours and mine, and I do think that real freedom means that the leftist has a society to live in just as the social conservative should have...not necessary the same society perhaps but I don't believe in authoritarianism without fair choice. I don't believe in societies where people live in fear without choice. Yes, I'm pro life and there are contradictions there that I'm not comfortable with....however you're apparently comfortable with viewing human life as disposable even at over 20 weeks so I ask who is really interested in what liberty here. Anyway lets not get distracted....this isn't about me. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Dec 2021 10.16pm) Why am I not surprised that you are a so-called "pro-lifer"? Whilst we certainly ought not get distracted at this time, as busting the myths of the determined anti-vaxers is the immediate focus, I will just quote this extract from the Princeton Uni lengthy analysis of this subject:- ""Prolifers claim that the abortion of a human embryo or a human fetus is wrong because it destroys human life. But human sperms and human ova are human life, too. So prolifers would also have to agree that the destruction of human sperms and human ova are no different from abortions, and that is ridiculous!" As Monty Python sang, "Every Sperm is Sacred". For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 12 Dec 21 10.48pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Do we really want a deep dive into what my political ideas are?

However, there is a lot in libertarianism that I respect and any criticisms I have of it always come with that.

Yes, I'm pro life and there are contradictions there that I'm not comfortable with....however you're apparently comfortable with viewing human life as disposable even at over 20 weeks so I ask who is really interested in what liberty here.

Anyway lets not get distracted....this isn't about me.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Dec 2021 10.16pm)

Why am I not surprised that you are a so-called "pro-lifer"?

Whilst we certainly ought not get distracted at this time, as busting the myths of the determined anti-vaxers is the immediate focus, I will just quote this extract from the Princeton Uni lengthy analysis of this subject:-

""Prolifers claim that the abortion of a human embryo or a human fetus is wrong because it destroys human life. But human sperms and human ova are human life, too. So prolifers would also have to agree that the destruction of human sperms and human ova are no different from abortions, and that is ridiculous!"

As Monty Python sang, "Every Sperm is Sacred".

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays 12 Dec 21 10.56pm
All cells are alive in a sense, however it's incredibly disingenuous to the point of incredulity to compare sperm with a five month old human being. This guy is just trying to goad me into reacting to him. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Dec 21 10.56pm

All cells are alive in a sense, however it's incredibly disingenuous to the point of incredulity to compare sperm with a five month old human being.

This guy is just trying to goad me into reacting to him.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Dec 21 11.30pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays All cells are alive in a sense, however it's incredibly disingenuous to the point of incredulity to compare sperm with a five month old human being. This guy is just trying to goad me into reacting to him. I agree wholeheartedly with this, but, of course, no-one is. Your claim was about human life, not human beings, and that was what that quote addressed. It might seem like a non point to anyone who has not debated these issues with "pro-life" advocates, but I have seen people get apoplectic with self-righteous certainty over such things. When emotion over-rules science, reason evaporates. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 12 Dec 21 11.30pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

All cells are alive in a sense, however it's incredibly disingenuous to the point of incredulity to compare sperm with a five month old human being.

This guy is just trying to goad me into reacting to him.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, but, of course, no-one is.

Your claim was about human life, not human beings, and that was what that quote addressed. It might seem like a non point to anyone who has not debated these issues with "pro-life" advocates, but I have seen people get apoplectic with self-righteous certainty over such things.

When emotion over-rules science, reason evaporates.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays 12 Dec 21 11.38pm
Abortion is a very heavy and dark subject and has its own thread. I get upset thinking about it and I'd very much rather not. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Dec 21 11.38pm

Abortion is a very heavy and dark subject and has its own thread.

I get upset thinking about it and I'd very much rather not.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Teddy Eagle 12 Dec 21 11.45pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I agree wholeheartedly with this, but, of course, no-one is. Your claim was about human life, not human beings, and that was what that quote addressed. It might seem like a non point to anyone who has not debated these issues with "pro-life" advocates, but I have seen people get apoplectic with self-righteous certainty over such things. When emotion over-rules science, reason evaporates. When it comes to self righteous certainty about vaccination, and Brexit, and referenda there are a few on here who’ve exhibited it to a spectacular degree.
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Teddy Eagle

12 Dec 21 11.45pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I agree wholeheartedly with this, but, of course, no-one is.

When emotion over-rules science, reason evaporates.

When it comes to self righteous certainty about vaccination, and Brexit, and referenda there are a few on here who’ve exhibited it to a spectacular degree.

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Helmet46 Croydon 13 Dec 21 7.22am
Originally posted by Teddy Eagle When it comes to self righteous certainty about vaccination, and Brexit, and referenda there are a few on here who’ve exhibited it to a spectacular degree. Indeed there are and certainly they continue to drag their self righteous indignation about Brexit into pretty much every discussion.
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Helmet46

Croydon 13 Dec 21 7.22am

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

When it comes to self righteous certainty about vaccination, and Brexit, and referenda there are a few on here who’ve exhibited it to a spectacular degree.

Indeed there are and certainly they continue to drag their self righteous indignation about Brexit into pretty much every discussion.

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