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DanH SW2 07 Dec 21 7.34pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Lockdowns should be avoidable as much as possible, and we’d probably see closing down of anything enjoyable rather than lockdown. But if hospitalisations and deaths did explode again the government would be left with little option I expect. Or some people may again not get treatment or crucial consultation meetings. Taking a stand against vaccinations is fine. But if this goes on and on because people refusing to get vaccinated causes this to continue then eventually there’s a tipping point. What about the businesses going under? What will small business owners think? If this continues until people decide it’s time the vax is safe, do we have another year of restrictions and maybe part or all of the next year? Does this go on and on? I can’t see I’d point the finger at the unvaccinated but I would probably think what do they expect? If the vax is the only way to end the restrictions causing all sorts of problems for others then what do they expect if this goes on for years? There are various scenarios with omicron and nobody knows, yet I keep reading the usual big names claiming they know. I doubt they’ll know once we get to the 3 weeks after Johnson’s last speech on omicron. Good post Rudi.
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DanH

SW2 07 Dec 21 7.34pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Lockdowns should be avoidable as much as possible, and we’d probably see closing down of anything enjoyable rather than lockdown. But if hospitalisations and deaths did explode again the government would be left with little option I expect. Or some people may again not get treatment or crucial consultation meetings.

Taking a stand against vaccinations is fine. But if this goes on and on because people refusing to get vaccinated causes this to continue then eventually there’s a tipping point. What about the businesses going under? What will small business owners think? If this continues until people decide it’s time the vax is safe, do we have another year of restrictions and maybe part or all of the next year? Does this go on and on?

I can’t see I’d point the finger at the unvaccinated but I would probably think what do they expect? If the vax is the only way to end the restrictions causing all sorts of problems for others then what do they expect if this goes on for years?

There are various scenarios with omicron and nobody knows, yet I keep reading the usual big names claiming they know. I doubt they’ll know once we get to the 3 weeks after Johnson’s last speech on omicron.

Good post Rudi.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 21 8.30pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Lockdowns should be avoidable as much as possible, and we’d probably see closing down of anything enjoyable rather than lockdown. But if hospitalisations and deaths did explode again the government would be left with little option I expect. Or some people may again not get treatment or crucial consultation meetings. Taking a stand against vaccinations is fine. But if this goes on and on because people refusing to get vaccinated causes this to continue then eventually there’s a tipping point. What about the businesses going under? What will small business owners think? If this continues until people decide it’s time the vax is safe, do we have another year of restrictions and maybe part or all of the next year? Does this go on and on? I can’t see I’d point the finger at the unvaccinated but I would probably think what do they expect? If the vax is the only way to end the restrictions causing all sorts of problems for others then what do they expect if this goes on for years? There are various scenarios with omicron and nobody knows, yet I keep reading the usual big names claiming they know. I doubt they’ll know once we get to the 3 weeks after Johnson’s last speech on omicron. Nobody wants a national lockdown, and I neither think people would tolerate another, nor is one necessary. Why do we need to lock down those who have taken all the necessary precautions and are unlikely to pose a risk to themselves, or the NHS, should they contract the virus? They, and their immediate family, just need to isolate for the appropriate time. The ones who need to be put in lockdown are those who pose the biggest risk, both to themselves and the functioning of the NHS. Excluding the unvaccinated from any contact with the rest of us, for as long as is necessary, seems the best way forward and what I expect will be the chosen path. There have been enough warnings, encouragement and opportunities. If this happens to them, then it's entirely their own responsibility and choice. The door is open to them as widely as it is to everyone else. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 21 8.30pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Nobody wants a national lockdown, and I neither think people would tolerate another, nor is one necessary.

Why do we need to lock down those who have taken all the necessary precautions and are unlikely to pose a risk to themselves, or the NHS, should they contract the virus? They, and their immediate family, just need to isolate for the appropriate time.

The ones who need to be put in lockdown are those who pose the biggest risk, both to themselves and the functioning of the NHS.

Excluding the unvaccinated from any contact with the rest of us, for as long as is necessary, seems the best way forward and what I expect will be the chosen path. There have been enough warnings, encouragement and opportunities. If this happens to them, then it's entirely their own responsibility and choice. The door is open to them as widely as it is to everyone else.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 07 Dec 21 9.29pm
I think ‘lockdowns’ might be used too loosely. I think the most we might possibly have again is closure of anything non essential and travel bans. That’s enough to effect people. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 07 Dec 21 9.29pm

I think ‘lockdowns’ might be used too loosely. I think the most we might possibly have again is closure of anything non essential and travel bans. That’s enough to effect people.

COYP

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 07 Dec 21 9.39pm
My dead arm (sore where vax was given near shoulder) reminds me of the dead arms dished out to each other at school. ‘’My BCG, My BCG’’ some would squeal. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 07 Dec 21 9.39pm

My dead arm (sore where vax was given near shoulder) reminds me of the dead arms dished out to each other at school. ‘’My BCG, My BCG’’ some would squeal.

COYP

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Stirlingsays 07 Dec 21 9.58pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Lockdowns should be avoidable as much as possible, and we’d probably see closing down of anything enjoyable rather than lockdown. But if hospitalisations and deaths did explode again the government would be left with little option I expect. Or some people may again not get treatment or crucial consultation meetings. Taking a stand against vaccinations is fine. But if this goes on and on because people refusing to get vaccinated causes this to continue then eventually there’s a tipping point. What about the businesses going under? What will small business owners think? If this continues until people decide it’s time the vax is safe, do we have another year of restrictions and maybe part or all of the next year? Does this go on and on? I can’t see I’d point the finger at the unvaccinated but I would probably think what do they expect? If the vax is the only way to end the restrictions causing all sorts of problems for others then what do they expect if this goes on for years? There are various scenarios with omicron and nobody knows, yet I keep reading the usual big names claiming they know. I doubt they’ll know once we get to the 3 weeks after Johnson’s last speech on omicron. I'm sad to hear this.....all that time on here. So the vaccine protects you against the virus....but apparently not the unvaccinated? So you're fine with 'what ifs' where they are imagined as the problem and you effectively agree with social punishments for decisions over their own health?.....some side to side with. Businesses going under via lockdowns were political choices and not forced on anyone. Not for me. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Dec 2021 10.09pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

07 Dec 21 9.58pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

I'm sad to hear this.....all that time on here.

So the vaccine protects you against the virus....but apparently not the unvaccinated? So you're fine with 'what ifs' where they are imagined as the problem and you effectively agree with social punishments for decisions over their own health?.....some side to side with.

Businesses going under via lockdowns were political choices and not forced on anyone.

Not for me.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Dec 2021 10.09pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 07 Dec 21 10.16pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I'm sad to hear this.....all that time on here. So the vaccine protects you against the virus....but apparently not the unvaccinated? So you're fine with 'what ifs' where that's their fault and you effectively punish them.....some side to side with. Not for me. Not it at all. I couldn’t care less who is where. Doesn’t bother me who is or isn’t vaccinated. But if the reasons for restrictions are that NHS services are unavailable and people are turned away or postponed because the numbers say that the unvaccinated are tipping it that way, then my view will be what will they expect if things become more restrictive for them. Way back I gained confidence in the vaccine because you’re better off with than without. That changes in childhood. Something the JVCI released yet the government decided to try and ignore. Actually what’s more annoying are people on either side claiming that omicron is going to be this or that, which isn’t clear at the moment, and again that’s down to maths. A huger, faster spike in many more cases can lead to more problems in hospitals even if it’s not as deadly percentage wise, but nobody on either side wants to be honest, or they haven’t the intelligence to think or wait. They just pick parts of what suits their point and it’s annoying from both sides, coming from people I had time for before. I’m talking people in the public eye, whether on twitter or tv. Either liars or unable to use more than 2 variables. Let’s just see. But if omicron isn’t bad over here then I want reversals of restrictions. This is where I know I’ll agree with those disagreeing with everything, and probably for the sake of it without judging everything separately. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 07 Dec 21 10.16pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I'm sad to hear this.....all that time on here.

So the vaccine protects you against the virus....but apparently not the unvaccinated? So you're fine with 'what ifs' where that's their fault and you effectively punish them.....some side to side with.

Not for me.

Not it at all. I couldn’t care less who is where. Doesn’t bother me who is or isn’t vaccinated. But if the reasons for restrictions are that NHS services are unavailable and people are turned away or postponed because the numbers say that the unvaccinated are tipping it that way, then my view will be what will they expect if things become more restrictive for them.

Way back I gained confidence in the vaccine because you’re better off with than without. That changes in childhood. Something the JVCI released yet the government decided to try and ignore.

Actually what’s more annoying are people on either side claiming that omicron is going to be this or that, which isn’t clear at the moment, and again that’s down to maths. A huger, faster spike in many more cases can lead to more problems in hospitals even if it’s not as deadly percentage wise, but nobody on either side wants to be honest, or they haven’t the intelligence to think or wait. They just pick parts of what suits their point and it’s annoying from both sides, coming from people I had time for before. I’m talking people in the public eye, whether on twitter or tv. Either liars or unable to use more than 2 variables.

Let’s just see. But if omicron isn’t bad over here then I want reversals of restrictions. This is where I know I’ll agree with those disagreeing with everything, and probably for the sake of it without judging everything separately.

COYP

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BlueJay UK 07 Dec 21 10.26pm
I see vaccination as being massively and provably useful in cushioning the blow of getting naturally infected and it having on average far, far less impact on the infected person during that process. It's an ideal transition. We're already hearing that those vaccinated who then got natural infect are in a far better position. On top of the above, there is bound to be a drop off in effectiveness of vaccines with markedly different variants, so if you have had two doses, not bothering with the booster shot is also are bad and irrational decision. It lifts anti body levels by around 90% above those having two doses (rather than the unvaccinated - something that hasn't been properly highlighted in coverage). It's all about best positioning yourself for the inevitable. People can do as they they, but I'd rather they make sensible decisions that consider the community, rather than get dragged this way and that by arbitrary political alignments that are either anti or pro evetything. Anything that lessens impact on the NHS and makes a call for lockdowns less likely to good by me, and I definitely see vaccines as being on the right side of that. Edited by BlueJay (07 Dec 2021 10.27pm)
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BlueJay

UK 07 Dec 21 10.26pm

I see vaccination as being massively and provably useful in cushioning the blow of getting naturally infected and it having on average far, far less impact on the infected person during that process. It's an ideal transition. We're already hearing that those vaccinated who then got natural infect are in a far better position.

On top of the above, there is bound to be a drop off in effectiveness of vaccines with markedly different variants, so if you have had two doses, not bothering with the booster shot is also are bad and irrational decision. It lifts anti body levels by around 90% above those having two doses (rather than the unvaccinated - something that hasn't been properly highlighted in coverage). It's all about best positioning yourself for the inevitable. People can do as they they, but I'd rather they make sensible decisions that consider the community, rather than get dragged this way and that by arbitrary political alignments that are either anti or pro evetything.

Anything that lessens impact on the NHS and makes a call for lockdowns less likely to good by me, and I definitely see vaccines as being on the right side of that.

Edited by BlueJay (07 Dec 2021 10.27pm)

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 21 10.31pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Not it at all. I couldn’t care less who is where. Doesn’t bother me who is or isn’t vaccinated. But if the reasons for restrictions are that NHS services are unavailable and people are turned away or postponed because the numbers say that the unvaccinated are tipping it that way, then my view will be what will they expect if things become more restrictive for them. Way back I gained confidence in the vaccine because you’re better off with than without. That changes in childhood. Something the JVCI released yet the government decided to try and ignore. Actually what’s more annoying are people on either side claiming that omicron is going to be this or that, which isn’t clear at the moment, and again that’s down to maths. A huger, faster spike in many more cases can lead to more problems in hospitals even if it’s not as deadly percentage wise, but nobody on either side wants to be honest, or they haven’t the intelligence to think or wait. They just pick parts of what suits their point and it’s annoying from both sides, coming from people I had time for before. I’m talking people in the public eye, whether on twitter or tv. Either liars or unable to use more than 2 variables. Let’s just see. But if omicron isn’t bad over here then I want reversals of restrictions. This is where I know I’ll agree with those disagreeing with everything, and probably for the sake of it without judging everything separately. I think that is exactly what we are doing. However, the lessons we learned from the early days was not to wait while we did that. We learned to go hard and go early, then relax just as soon as the situation warranted it. You cannot retrace your steps and put the genie back in the bottle, but you can let it out just as soon as you know it's safe. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 07 Dec 21 10.31pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Way back I gained confidence in the vaccine because you’re better off with than without. That changes in childhood. Something the JVCI released yet the government decided to try and ignore.

Let’s just see. But if omicron isn’t bad over here then I want reversals of restrictions. This is where I know I’ll agree with those disagreeing with everything, and probably for the sake of it without judging everything separately.

I think that is exactly what we are doing. However, the lessons we learned from the early days was not to wait while we did that. We learned to go hard and go early, then relax just as soon as the situation warranted it. You cannot retrace your steps and put the genie back in the bottle, but you can let it out just as soon as you know it's safe.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 07 Dec 21 10.32pm
New study out – FFP2, medical and 3+ layer masks significantly reduce the chance of getting COVID. Don't be a mug, when in a relevant scenario, wear one. If you're one of the morons that are still wearing a mask fashioned out of your old cotton shirt and silly string, don't bother. Upgrade. For the paranoid anti-authoritarians, natural selection should do its job this time around. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 07 Dec 21 10.32pm

New study out – FFP2, medical and 3+ layer masks significantly reduce the chance of getting COVID.

Don't be a mug, when in a relevant scenario, wear one.

If you're one of the morons that are still wearing a mask fashioned out of your old cotton shirt and silly string, don't bother. Upgrade.

For the paranoid anti-authoritarians, natural selection should do its job this time around.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 07 Dec 21 10.35pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Businesses going under via lockdowns were political choices and not forced on anyone. Not for me. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Dec 2021 10.09pm) There were times when businesses were closed unnecessarily. Whereas now we’re in a period of short term uncertainty. If all sorts of people were denied healthcare because most unvaccinated are waiting for I don’t know when then there aren’t many options to choose from. I’m talking leisure and entertainment. I don’t agree with mandatory vaccinations but the longer this goes on and the NHS cannot do what it’s there to do then I won’t be surprised. I doubt I’ll even hear a moan about it but if I did I’d probably ask what did you expect? None of it ultimately bothers me in the slightest. It bothers the ‘’I won’t get vaccinated’’ rather than anti-vax on twitter the most, although they have a point regarding those who don’t care about their health, and they’ve had since March 2020 to lose weight or get healthier. We could increase NI by 5% and import thousands of nurses to get round all this. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 07 Dec 21 10.35pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Businesses going under via lockdowns were political choices and not forced on anyone.

Not for me.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Dec 2021 10.09pm)

There were times when businesses were closed unnecessarily. Whereas now we’re in a period of short term uncertainty. If all sorts of people were denied healthcare because most unvaccinated are waiting for I don’t know when then there aren’t many options to choose from. I’m talking leisure and entertainment.

I don’t agree with mandatory vaccinations but the longer this goes on and the NHS cannot do what it’s there to do then I won’t be surprised. I doubt I’ll even hear a moan about it but if I did I’d probably ask what did you expect?

None of it ultimately bothers me in the slightest. It bothers the ‘’I won’t get vaccinated’’ rather than anti-vax on twitter the most, although they have a point regarding those who don’t care about their health, and they’ve had since March 2020 to lose weight or get healthier.

We could increase NI by 5% and import thousands of nurses to get round all this.

COYP

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 07 Dec 21 10.38pm
Originally posted by BlueJay I see vaccination as being massively and provably useful in cushioning the blow of getting naturally infected and it having on average far, far less impact on the infected person during that process. It's an ideal transition. We're already hearing that those vaccinated who then got natural infect are in a far better position. On top of the above, there is bound to be a drop off in effectiveness of vaccines with markedly different variants, so if you have had two doses, not bothering with the booster shot is also are bad and irrational decision. It lifts anti body levels by around 90% above those having two doses (rather than the unvaccinated - something that hasn't been properly highlighted in coverage). It's all about best positioning yourself for the inevitable. People can do as they they, but I'd rather they make sensible decisions that consider the community, rather than get dragged this way and that by arbitrary political alignments that are either anti or pro evetything. Anything that lessens impact on the NHS and makes a call for lockdowns less likely to good by me, and I definitely see vaccines as being on the right side of that. Edited by BlueJay (07 Dec 2021 10.27pm) I’ve seen that the other way round is ultimately the best. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 07 Dec 21 10.38pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

I see vaccination as being massively and provably useful in cushioning the blow of getting naturally infected and it having on average far, far less impact on the infected person during that process. It's an ideal transition. We're already hearing that those vaccinated who then got natural infect are in a far better position.

Anything that lessens impact on the NHS and makes a call for lockdowns less likely to good by me, and I definitely see vaccines as being on the right side of that.

Edited by BlueJay (07 Dec 2021 10.27pm)

I’ve seen that the other way round is ultimately the best.

COYP

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 07 Dec 21 10.42pm
Originally posted by BlueJay I see vaccination as being massively and provably useful in cushioning the blow of getting naturally infected and it having on average far, far less impact on the infected person during that process. It's an ideal transition. We're already hearing that those vaccinated who then got natural infect are in a far better position. On top of the above, there is bound to be a drop off in effectiveness of vaccines with markedly different variants, so if you have had two doses, not bothering with the booster shot is also are bad and irrational decision. It lifts anti body levels by around 90% above those having two doses (rather than the unvaccinated - something that hasn't been properly highlighted in coverage). It's all about best positioning yourself for the inevitable. People can do as they they, but I'd rather they make sensible decisions that consider the community, rather than get dragged this way and that by arbitrary political alignments that are either anti or pro evetything. Anything that lessens impact on the NHS and makes a call for lockdowns less likely to good by me, and I definitely see vaccines as being on the right side of that. Edited by BlueJay (07 Dec 2021 10.27pm) Particularly annoying right now as things evolve, drag on and being in a short term period of uncertainty. And this is both sides of the argument. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 07 Dec 21 10.42pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

On top of the above, there is bound to be a drop off in effectiveness of vaccines with markedly different variants, so if you have had two doses, not bothering with the booster shot is also are bad and irrational decision. It lifts anti body levels by around 90% above those having two doses (rather than the unvaccinated - something that hasn't been properly highlighted in coverage). It's all about best positioning yourself for the inevitable. People can do as they they, but I'd rather they make sensible decisions that consider the community, rather than get dragged this way and that by arbitrary political alignments that are either anti or pro evetything.

Anything that lessens impact on the NHS and makes a call for lockdowns less likely to good by me, and I definitely see vaccines as being on the right side of that.

Edited by BlueJay (07 Dec 2021 10.27pm)

Particularly annoying right now as things evolve, drag on and being in a short term period of uncertainty. And this is both sides of the argument.

COYP

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