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 serial thriller  The Promised Land 03 Aug 14 8.25pm |
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This is an unusually funny take on it.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| Palacetinian Surrey Fam 03 Aug 14 8.28pm |
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Quote serial thriller at 03 Aug 2014 8.25pm
This is an unusually funny take on it.
Supporting Crystal Palace since 19.45 on 29th August 1972 (approximately)! |
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| Stirlingsays 03 Aug 14 8.29pm |
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Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 7.56pm
Ok, let me explain, in simple terms... You made an entirely unsubstantiated allegation that everyone who opposes the building of the wall is condoning the killing of Israelis. After being pushed, you have now provided some very basic statistics which show that the killings have reduced since the wall was built. I doubt anyone would deny that building the wall has reduced killings, at least in the short term, but to state that people who are opposed to building the wall are condoning the killings is utter nonsense. Has it occurred to you that building the wall may be a very short-sighted solution which, whilst reducing casualties in the short term, may actually provoke and prolong the conflict and ultimately increase the number of casualties? Of course no one knows the answer to that question, but your initial statement was simplistic, arrogant and insulting to everyone who disagreed with you (along with many other comments on this thread an elsewhere). As I have said to you before, I think you should stop pontificating for a while and actually read up a bit on things first so that you could make a more informed and valuable contribution to the debate, if that is what you wish to do. If you do not have the patience to actually sit and learn, then a less arrogant tone to your posts would, I am sure, be appreciated by the majority on here. As it is, you come over simply as the pub boor who thinks that, if they say things loudly and confidently enough, then people will believe you.
At least near the beginning of your post you (at last) provide some content before you lapsed back into your usual. Dealing with the content I could see how I might have refined that statement,.but essentially it holds to be mostly true in its consequences. I can see arguments again the wall in terms of route and disruption to Palestinian life. Those who argue that the wall is unjust in those aspects have a point and Israel have a duty of care that they have or haven't taken on. However, if the upshoot of that is that they support the wall coming down.....Well, you can be mealy mouthed all you like but I view that as de facto ignoring or supporting the obvious increase in Israel deaths that would result. Maybe some people are ok with ignoring the practical consequences of there being no more west bank wall rather than openly condoning increased Israeli death.......There is that enough of a refinement to the statement for you? In the future.....As part of a final peace agreement...Where Hamas and other groups are no longer willing to send militants using that method......Well, who knows maybe that wall would come down.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Kermit8  Hevon 03 Aug 14 8.34pm |
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The wall and its restrictions has been effective on one level. As it has been partly successful I propose Israel build some more. Around their own military bases. In order to see another impressive reduction. That in the Palestinian civilian and child deaths since 2005. 5,000.
Big chest and massive boobs |
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| Palacetinian Surrey Fam 03 Aug 14 8.37pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 8.06pm
Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 7.50pm
Really Stirling? It's you that trots out Israeli propaganda all the time despite all the evidence that others here have posted in reply. If you really believe the wall is solely responsible for a 90% reduction in suicide bombing then you are mistaken. Did Israeli apartheid wall really stop suicide bombings? Are you calling actual statistics that can be checked, Israeli propaganda? This done from a website called, 'electronicintifada.net'.....Does that statement qualify as self parody? Are statistics Israeli propaganda now? Some Wiki links on deaths from suicide bombers which show the massive declines from 2002 onwards. In the references for the two you have two non Israeli sources. It is very clear. 452 in 2002 when the barrier was built to 9 in 2010....Hardly any now. It is certainly true that militants could increase this number but the quickly found out that attacking via this method was far less effective. In terms of reducing Israeli civilian the barrier has been a huge success.....though I recognise the problems associated with it. In terms of arguing against this....perhaps it is you who are listening to propaganda. You are using a simple statistic (452 in 2002 when the barrier was built to 9 in 2010....Hardly any now) and drawing a simple conclusion. If you actually read the article which was written by Ben White (not an Israeli or a Palestinian. In fact you can also google what Roger Waters from Pink Floyd thinks about the wall, which is actually illegal in terms of international law. Unlike you, I suspect, I have actually seen the wall at first hand and know the impact it has had on people's lives so your last comment is also invalid - I don't need to be "listening to propaganda".
Supporting Crystal Palace since 19.45 on 29th August 1972 (approximately)! |
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SloveniaDave  Tirana, Albania 03 Aug 14 8.38pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 8.29pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 7.56pm
Ok, let me explain, in simple terms... You made an entirely unsubstantiated allegation that everyone who opposes the building of the wall is condoning the killing of Israelis. After being pushed, you have now provided some very basic statistics which show that the killings have reduced since the wall was built. I doubt anyone would deny that building the wall has reduced killings, at least in the short term, but to state that people who are opposed to building the wall are condoning the killings is utter nonsense. Has it occurred to you that building the wall may be a very short-sighted solution which, whilst reducing casualties in the short term, may actually provoke and prolong the conflict and ultimately increase the number of casualties? Of course no one knows the answer to that question, but your initial statement was simplistic, arrogant and insulting to everyone who disagreed with you (along with many other comments on this thread an elsewhere). As I have said to you before, I think you should stop pontificating for a while and actually read up a bit on things first so that you could make a more informed and valuable contribution to the debate, if that is what you wish to do. If you do not have the patience to actually sit and learn, then a less arrogant tone to your posts would, I am sure, be appreciated by the majority on here. As it is, you come over simply as the pub boor who thinks that, if they say things loudly and confidently enough, then people will believe you.
At least near the beginning of your post you (at last) provide some content before you lapsed back into your usual. Dealing with the content I could see how I might have refined that statement,.but essentially it holds to be mostly true in its consequences. I can see arguments again the wall in terms of route and disruption to Palestinian life. Those who argue that the wall is unjust in those aspects have a point and Israel have a duty of care that they have or haven't taken on. However, if the upshoot of that is that they support the wall coming down.....Well, you can be mealy mouthed all you like but I view that as de facto ignoring or supporting the obvious increase in Israel deaths that would result. Maybe some people are ok with ignoring the practical consequences of there being no more west bank wall rather than openly condoning increased Israeli death.......There is that enough of a refinement to the statement for you? In the future.....As part of a final peace agreement...Where Hamas and other groups are no longer willing to send militants using that method......Well, who knows maybe that wall would come down. Again, utterly stupid bilge. The wall has to go one day, same as the Berlin Wall, or there will never be peace. The only question is the terms on which it is removed. No one condones deaths on either side - when will you get that into your thick head?
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive) |
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| Stirlingsays 03 Aug 14 8.50pm |
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Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 8.37pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 8.06pm
Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 7.50pm
Really Stirling? It's you that trots out Israeli propaganda all the time despite all the evidence that others here have posted in reply. If you really believe the wall is solely responsible for a 90% reduction in suicide bombing then you are mistaken. Did Israeli apartheid wall really stop suicide bombings? Are you calling actual statistics that can be checked, Israeli propaganda? This done from a website called, 'electronicintifada.net'.....Does that statement qualify as self parody? Are statistics Israeli propaganda now? Some Wiki links on deaths from suicide bombers which show the massive declines from 2002 onwards. In the references for the two you have two non Israeli sources. It is very clear. 452 in 2002 when the barrier was built to 9 in 2010....Hardly any now. It is certainly true that militants could increase this number but the quickly found out that attacking via this method was far less effective. In terms of reducing Israeli civilian the barrier has been a huge success.....though I recognise the problems associated with it. In terms of arguing against this....perhaps it is you who are listening to propaganda. You are using a simple statistic (452 in 2002 when the barrier was built to 9 in 2010....Hardly any now) and drawing a simple conclusion. If you actually read the article which was written by Ben White (not an Israeli or a Palestinian. In fact you can also google what Roger Waters from Pink Floyd thinks about the wall, which is actually illegal in terms of international law. Unlike you, I suspect, I have actually seen the wall at first hand and know the impact it has had on people's lives so your last comment is also invalid - I don't need to be "listening to propaganda".
Simple or not, it is the right conclusion. As for the other effects of the wall, they are a consequence of the militant's war but I'm not going to deny the restrictions that this wall enacts. International law? No doubt....Very effective that international law isn't it? If they feel strongly enough maybe they should do something about it then. The nationality of the article writer doesn't really matter does it? What's the point of saying that? Obviously people of nationalities outside of this conflict hold different opinions on one side or the other or neutral. No I haven't seen the wall.....So does this mean my opinion is less valid than yours then? Mmmmm....What have I seen that you haven't seen?...Doesn't matter does it because according to that logic my opinion must automatically be more valid than yours. For example, have you been to Gibraltar? I have...If you haven't my view is bah bah bah......It really makes no difference. Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Aug 2014 8.56pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 03 Aug 14 8.54pm |
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Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 8.38pm
Again, utterly stupid bilge. The wall has to go one day, same as the Berlin Wall, or there will never be peace. The only question is the terms on which it is removed. No one condones deaths on either side - when will you get that into your thick head?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| SloveniaDave Tirana, Albania 03 Aug 14 8.58pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 8.54pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 8.38pm
Again, utterly stupid bilge. The wall has to go one day, same as the Berlin Wall, or there will never be peace. The only question is the terms on which it is removed. No one condones deaths on either side - when will you get that into your thick head?
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive) |
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| Stirlingsays 03 Aug 14 9.15pm |
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Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 8.58pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 8.54pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 8.38pm
Again, utterly stupid bilge. The wall has to go one day, same as the Berlin Wall, or there will never be peace. The only question is the terms on which it is removed. No one condones deaths on either side - when will you get that into your thick head?
Your first paragraph contains logic that I posted in my last paragraph of the previous post. Then you write it as though it's news to me or anyone. Then in your second paragraph starts with something that is obviously factually inaccurate if taken at face value...There are many examples of people calling for deaths on both sides...Using, 'no one' is just simplistic...Amusing since you're been using the word so much. If the intent of the vague wording was meant to just apply to the contributors on the thread then fair enough I'd say that's accurate. However, in my post I talk of 'practical consequences' of supporting the removal of the wall during conflict..... and I also made the refinement that some people are willing to ignore those practical consequences rather than overtly support increased Israeli civilian death....Even though that is what would happen. If you meant just for this thread then in my opinion....to hazard a guess I suppose those supporting the removal of the wall during conflict would probably fall into that camp. Still, how we could be so sure as you....Well, there you go. Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Aug 2014 9.20pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| SloveniaDave Tirana, Albania 03 Aug 14 9.32pm |
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Don't be so obtuse. Of course I was referring to people on this thread, as those are the ones you have accused of 'condoning' the killing of Israelis. Who talked about removing the wall now? No one, in my recollection. You just made a sweeping judgment about anyone who wants it removed. Fortunately, I try to see the best in people, as far as possible. Otherwise, I do not think it would be unreasonable for others to suggest that you are a bigoted, sectarian racist and a man of very limited intelligence.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive) |
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| Stirlingsays 03 Aug 14 9.41pm |
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Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 9.32pm
Don't be so obtuse. Of course I was referring to people on this thread, as those are the ones you have accused of 'condoning' the killing of Israelis. Who talked about removing the wall now? No one, in my recollection. You just made a sweeping judgment about anyone who wants it removed. Fortunately, I try to see the best in people, as far as possible. Otherwise, I do not think it would be unreasonable for others to suggest that you are a bigoted, sectarian racist and a man of very limited intelligence.
As for you amusing list of ending insults....keep on going granddad, at some stage you might just think of a punch line. Would you like a bitter lemon? If not you're doing a damn fine impression of one sir. Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Aug 2014 10.00pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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