VAT on school fees

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VAT on school fees

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RubinsCube Wimbledon 18 Jun 24 3.04pm
Originally posted by Dubai Eagle My Kids were born & raised in the UAE, so basically I paid for their education (Nursery / primary / secondary) for the primary & secondary parts my employer kicked in a contribution towards the cost (but it was still a bucket load of money) When my 2 kids reached around 13 / 14 we took the decision to relocate them back to the UK with my wife & I followed on a year or 2 later. Part of the reason for getting them back to the UK at that age was that if they attended University (despite them holding UK passports) if they had not physically been back in the UK for 3 years they would have been charged as international students & international students at Universities pay double the rate of local students. Getting a place in a UK Secondary school was also a bit tricky - our choices were- Turn up at Tabener house in Croydon in the August & wait to be allocated a place in a Croydon school of the councils choosing with no guarantee that both kids would go to the same school, or find a school that handles their own admission policy & procedure, we did after loads of overseas phone calls manage to find a school ourselves. Maybe Rubins knows whether international students pay increased rates at fee paying secondary schools ? That's a great question. At the schools I worked at (which were boarding schools), yes and no. The school fees were the same, so in one sense a pupil from China would pay the same fees as someone from Croydon. But there are tiers of fees: generally you have day pupils (no boarding; lowest fees), full boarders (living in school 7 days a week apart from school holidays; much higher fees), and boarders (living in school typically 2-4 days a week; fees in between the other two). Virtually all international pupils would be full boarders. So top tier fees and therefore more income for the school. In my experience, international students nearly always topped out in exam results as well so it was a win-win in more than just a financial sense.
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RubinsCube

Wimbledon 18 Jun 24 3.04pm

Originally posted by Dubai Eagle

My Kids were born & raised in the UAE, so basically I paid for their education (Nursery / primary / secondary) for the primary & secondary parts my employer kicked in a contribution towards the cost (but it was still a bucket load of money)

When my 2 kids reached around 13 / 14 we took the decision to relocate them back to the UK with my wife & I followed on a year or 2 later.

Part of the reason for getting them back to the UK at that age was that if they attended University (despite them holding UK passports) if they had not physically been back in the UK for 3 years they would have been charged as international students & international students at Universities pay double the rate of local students.

Getting a place in a UK Secondary school was also a bit tricky - our choices were- Turn up at Tabener house in Croydon in the August & wait to be allocated a place in a Croydon school of the councils choosing with no guarantee that both kids would go to the same school, or find a school that handles their own admission policy & procedure, we did after loads of overseas phone calls manage to find a school ourselves.

Maybe Rubins knows whether international students pay increased rates at fee paying secondary schools ?

That's a great question. At the schools I worked at (which were boarding schools), yes and no.

The school fees were the same, so in one sense a pupil from China would pay the same fees as someone from Croydon.

But there are tiers of fees: generally you have day pupils (no boarding; lowest fees), full boarders (living in school 7 days a week apart from school holidays; much higher fees), and boarders (living in school typically 2-4 days a week; fees in between the other two).

Virtually all international pupils would be full boarders. So top tier fees and therefore more income for the school. In my experience, international students nearly always topped out in exam results as well so it was a win-win in more than just a financial sense.

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RubinsCube Wimbledon 18 Jun 24 3.30pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC As I've said, I think it's high time private schools charity status was put under the microscope and charging VAT is something that probably should have come in decades ago. It will not create transformational sums of money, that's for sure. But I doubt this will force a significant majority of private schools to close. It will certainly impact some, though. Some costs can be absorbed due to the ability to claim back expenses elsewhere. It will get competitive and I'll be surprised if the govt don't include a couple of taxback related sweeteners as part of the change. I agree this is a very valuable debate to have. I do not have a monopoly of wisdom on every private school's finances, but what I do know is that every time a recession comes around, or every time the VAT/tax question gets raised in politics, there is a genuine armageddon panic in many private schools. The margins are just so thin even though the sticker prices for fees look so large and the schools are well run. Something which I have not seen brought up yet in this thread is that schools need to demonstrate they are sufficiently 'charitable' each year to be exempt from VAT: it is not a given, and it is a yearly challenge. Facilities and so on are open to the public at subsidized rates or for free, local state schools use many facilities throughout the year, a % of income needs to be forgone to offer bursaries and free places, and donations of time and money are made to local communities. In some more rural places the town/village economy literally hinges on the school. I would also not be surprised if there were taxback 'alignments' for the families and/or the schools themselves. But in that case, what is the point if not ideological?
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RubinsCube

Wimbledon 18 Jun 24 3.30pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

As I've said, I think it's high time private schools charity status was put under the microscope and charging VAT is something that probably should have come in decades ago.

It will not create transformational sums of money, that's for sure. But I doubt this will force a significant majority of private schools to close. It will certainly impact some, though.

Some costs can be absorbed due to the ability to claim back expenses elsewhere. It will get competitive and I'll be surprised if the govt don't include a couple of taxback related sweeteners as part of the change.

I agree this is a very valuable debate to have.

I do not have a monopoly of wisdom on every private school's finances, but what I do know is that every time a recession comes around, or every time the VAT/tax question gets raised in politics, there is a genuine armageddon panic in many private schools. The margins are just so thin even though the sticker prices for fees look so large and the schools are well run.

Something which I have not seen brought up yet in this thread is that schools need to demonstrate they are sufficiently 'charitable' each year to be exempt from VAT: it is not a given, and it is a yearly challenge. Facilities and so on are open to the public at subsidized rates or for free, local state schools use many facilities throughout the year, a % of income needs to be forgone to offer bursaries and free places, and donations of time and money are made to local communities. In some more rural places the town/village economy literally hinges on the school.

I would also not be surprised if there were taxback 'alignments' for the families and/or the schools themselves. But in that case, what is the point if not ideological?

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YT Oxford 18 Jun 24 4.27pm
Originally posted by HKOwen Ah ok, so it would be possibly the rate and the point of payment What do you mean? Everyone with an income, be they child, adult or 'pensioner' pays the same rates of tax based on the same thresholds. What exactly are you saying Labour is going to do? Tax pensioners more than it taxes everyone else? Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)
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Oxford 18 Jun 24 4.27pm

Originally posted by HKOwen

Ah ok, so it would be possibly the rate and the point of payment

What do you mean? Everyone with an income, be they child, adult or 'pensioner' pays the same rates of tax based on the same thresholds. What exactly are you saying Labour is going to do? Tax pensioners more than it taxes everyone else?

Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)

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Hrolf The Ganger 18 Jun 24 4.31pm
Originally posted by HKOwen Be grateful you're not in the Starmer family where the ill will die waiting on principle......yeah right Yes, according to his kind, you should use the state, even when it doesn't work. A state where people die waiting for treatment, their teeth fall out because they can't find an NHS dentist and your kids have to go to a school with crap teachers and kids who want to stab you. But as long as it's ideologically sound, it's OK.
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Hrolf The Ganger

18 Jun 24 4.31pm

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Originally posted by HKOwen

Be grateful you're not in the Starmer family where the ill will die waiting on principle......yeah right

Yes, according to his kind, you should use the state, even when it doesn't work. A state where people die waiting for treatment, their teeth fall out because they can't find an NHS dentist and your kids have to go to a school with crap teachers and kids who want to stab you.

But as long as it's ideologically sound, it's OK.

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YT Oxford 18 Jun 24 4.52pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Yes, according to his kind, you should use the state, even when it doesn't work. A state where people die waiting for treatment, their teeth fall out because they can't find an NHS dentist and your kids have to go to a school with crap teachers and kids who want to stab you. But as long as it's ideologically sound, it's OK. Maybe Starmer's party hopes to improve the state's provision. It sounds like it couldn't be much worse than it is now if your description is correct. Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)
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Oxford 18 Jun 24 4.52pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

But as long as it's ideologically sound, it's OK.

Maybe Starmer's party hopes to improve the state's provision. It sounds like it couldn't be much worse than it is now if your description is correct.

Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)

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Hrolf The Ganger 18 Jun 24 4.57pm
Originally posted by YT Maybe Starmer's party hopes to improve the state's provision. It sounds like it couldn't be much worse than it is now if your description is correct. How will they do that? Their track record is abysmal and there is no money in the piggy bank.
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Hrolf The Ganger

18 Jun 24 4.57pm

Originally posted by YT

Maybe Starmer's party hopes to improve the state's provision. It sounds like it couldn't be much worse than it is now if your description is correct.

How will they do that?

Their track record is abysmal and there is no money in the piggy bank.

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YT Oxford 18 Jun 24 5.12pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger How will they do that? Their track record is abysmal and there is no money in the piggy bank. I've no idea. But the grim picture you paint is after 14 years of the other lot being responsible for it. Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)
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Oxford 18 Jun 24 5.12pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

How will they do that?

Their track record is abysmal and there is no money in the piggy bank.

I've no idea. But the grim picture you paint is after 14 years of the other lot being responsible for it.

Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)

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The Dolphin 18 Jun 24 5.25pm
Private schools will have to cut costs and close their facilities to state schools - and many do this for free currently. They will also cut down scholarships and bursaries therefore removing the aspirations of many less well off pupils.currently It won't raise the money that is projected and it is the politics of envy and Labour's sop to the hard left of the Party - pathetic. Edited by The Dolphin (18 Jun 2024 5.27pm)
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The Dolphin

18 Jun 24 5.25pm

Private schools will have to cut costs and close their facilities to state schools - and many do this for free currently.
They will also cut down scholarships and bursaries therefore removing the aspirations of many less well off pupils.currently
It won't raise the money that is projected and it is the politics of envy and Labour's sop to the hard left of the Party - pathetic.

Edited by The Dolphin (18 Jun 2024 5.27pm)

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cryrst The garden of England 18 Jun 24 5.55pm
Originally posted by The Dolphin Private schools will have to cut costs and close their facilities to state schools - and many do this for free currently. They will also cut down scholarships and bursaries therefore removing the aspirations of many less well off pupils.currently It won't raise the money that is projected and it is the politics of envy and Labour's sop to the hard left of the Party - pathetic. Edited by The Dolphin (18 Jun 2024 5.27pm) They don’t care. Initially it will be the cons fault. Everything will be blamed on them. After 6 months the coffee will start to be smelt.
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cryrst

The garden of England 18 Jun 24 5.55pm

Originally posted by The Dolphin

Edited by The Dolphin (18 Jun 2024 5.27pm)

They don’t care. Initially it will be the cons fault. Everything will be blamed on them. After 6 months the coffee will start to be smelt.

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YT Oxford 18 Jun 24 6.10pm
Originally posted by cryrst They don’t care. Initially it will be the cons fault. Everything will be blamed on them. After 6 months the coffee will start to be smelt. Every incoming government blames the previous one for everything, and generally throughout its first term. It's a tactic that generally succeeds. Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)
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Oxford 18 Jun 24 6.10pm

Originally posted by cryrst

They don’t care. Initially it will be the cons fault. Everything will be blamed on them. After 6 months the coffee will start to be smelt.

Every incoming government blames the previous one for everything, and generally throughout its first term. It's a tactic that generally succeeds.

Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)

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Hrolf The Ganger 18 Jun 24 9.51pm
Originally posted by YT I've no idea. But the grim picture you paint is after 14 years of the other lot being responsible for it. There is no money because of COVID, not mismanagement. The alternative was what? Potentially allow thousands more to die and let business and jobs collapse? The NHS cannot continue as it is under any government. Too many people to caster for, staff stretched too thin, too many services to cover. Dentistry needs reform. Dentists have become far too greedy. How we make that happen is for the government to figure out. I'm voting Reform because of mass immigration. That is the root cause of most of our problems. Never think that thinks can't get worse. They will under Starmer.
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Hrolf The Ganger

18 Jun 24 9.51pm

Originally posted by YT

I've no idea. But the grim picture you paint is after 14 years of the other lot being responsible for it.

There is no money because of COVID, not mismanagement. The alternative was what? Potentially allow thousands more to die and let business and jobs collapse?

The NHS cannot continue as it is under any government. Too many people to caster for, staff stretched too thin, too many services to cover.

Dentistry needs reform. Dentists have become far too greedy. How we make that happen is for the government to figure out.

I'm voting Reform because of mass immigration. That is the root cause of most of our problems.

Never think that thinks can't get worse. They will under Starmer.

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Tunbridge Tunbridge Wells 18 Jun 24 11.39pm
How long do you use Covid as an excuse? Is farage the most useless, over televised failure in existence?
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Tunbridge

Tunbridge Wells 18 Jun 24 11.39pm

How long do you use Covid as an excuse?

Is farage the most useless, over televised failure in existence?

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