This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
Euro 2024
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In
 EverybodyDannsNow  SE19 18 Jun 24 9.40am |
  |
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by MrRobbo
My issue with the game, and probably perceived overaction to a 1-0 win. Is that its more than just this one game. Its off the back of a terrible performance against Iceland, unconvincing again Bosnia, last min equaliser against Belgium, loss to Brazil, draw against Macedonia. So we are all hoping that we manage to pull things together for the tournament, but its the same dross. And for a Palace fan, it feels very similar to the end of Roy, no cohesiveness, no apparent plan, players in wrong positions etc. And last 10 years.... I honestly do believe that England should have done better. Southgate's tactics (as with Roys) are able to drag us through matches against poorer oppo, but struggle against the better ones. Especially considering the Spanish, Germans and Italians have had pretty big squad overhauls. And this Trent in midfield experiment, its as bad as Scholes playing Left mid, or Kane on corners. Also, the friendlies are pointless. He doesn't use them to try new formations or tactics, simply putting different people into the same roles. Its why we are now entering a major tournament without knowing: It's a reasonable post and I think many of your concerns are fair - again, I'm certainly not suggesting Southgate is anything like an elite-level manager nor that he doesn't have some very obviously flaws in his approach, but I have found a lot of the fall-out to Sunday night to be over the top. I think the stuff about the last 10 years is harsh - in the last 3 tournaments we've lost a QF to France with a missed penalty, a final to Italy on penalties, and a semi-final in extra time to a very good Croatia side. I think it's really hard to argue that losing as finalists, semi-finalists and quarter-finalists in consecutive tournaments, all in games of exceptionally fine margins, is anything close to a disaster or even an underperformance. You mention Spain, Germany, Italy for example; Spain lost to Russia in the last 16 in 2018, semi-final to Italy in 2020, lost to Morocco in the last 16 in 2022. Germany failed to get out of their group in WC 18 (losing to South Korea and Mexico), lost to us in last 16 in Euro 20, and then failed to get out of the group again in WC22. Italy didn't even qualify in 2018 or 2022, but won the Euros in 2020. It's that sort of context I feel is missing from your analysis. I agree with you on Trent and I don't think we'll see it again this tournament. I don't like the framing of 'getting the best out of Foden'- there has to also be some onus on the player to step up and produce, and he never really has in an England shirt, despite a variety of roles over the years. We absolutely have used friendlies to try new tactics and we've significantly changed our tactical approach from previous tournaments - we've phased out a number of key players from previous tournaments; Henderson, Phillips, Maguire, Rashford, Grealish, Sterling, and replaced them with players more adept at a high-pressing system like Gordon and Bowen. Every squad in the tournament probably still has unanswered questions in terms of a couple of spots in the starting XI, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that.
|
|
 Alert a moderator to this post |
  |
Frickin Saweet  South Cronx 18 Jun 24 9.43am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
It's a reasonable post and I think many of your concerns are fair - again, I'm certainly not suggesting Southgate is anything like an elite-level manager nor that he doesn't have some very obviously flaws in his approach, but I have found a lot of the fall-out to Sunday night to be over the top. I think the stuff about the last 10 years is harsh - in the last 3 tournaments we've lost a QF to France with a missed penalty, a final to Italy on penalties, and a semi-final in extra time to a very good Croatia side. I think it's really hard to argue that losing as finalists, semi-finalists and quarter-finalists in consecutive tournaments, all in games of exceptionally fine margins, is anything close to a disaster or even an underperformance. You mention Spain, Germany, Italy for example; Spain lost to Russia in the last 16 in 2018, semi-final to Italy in 2020, lost to Morocco in the last 16 in 2022. Germany failed to get out of their group in WC 18 (losing to South Korea and Mexico), lost to us in last 16 in Euro 20, and then failed to get out of the group again in WC22. Italy didn't even qualify in 2018 or 2022, but won the Euros in 2020. It's that sort of context I feel is missing from your analysis. I agree with you on Trent and I don't think we'll see it again this tournament. I don't like the framing of 'getting the best out of Foden'- there has to also be some onus on the player to step up and produce, and he never really has in an England shirt, despite a variety of roles over the years. We absolutely have used friendlies to try new tactics and we've significantly changed our tactical approach from previous tournaments - we've phased out a number of key players from previous tournaments; Henderson, Phillips, Maguire, Rashford, Grealish, Sterling, and replaced them with players more adept at a high-pressing system like Gordon and Bowen. Every squad in the tournament probably still has unanswered questions in terms of a couple of spots in the starting XI, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that. I think we will persevere with Trent in midfield. The first game wasn't an experiment, it was the culmination of everything that had led him to thinking that's where Trent should play
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 18 Jun 24 9.47am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Frickin Saweet
I think we will persevere with Trent in midfield. The first game wasn't an experiment, it was the culmination of everything that had led him to thinking that's where Trent should play We won't have to wait long to find out at least! I think it will be Gallagher against teams who will have more of the ball (potentially Denmark included in that), so by the time we get to knock out rounds, Gallagher will be the go to. I think Southgate thought Trent's passing range would give us something different against a low-block like Serbia, so potentially he also tries that in the Slovenia game, but I'd be very surprised if we see Trent there against bigger sides.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| MrRobbo Chaldon 18 Jun 24 10.12am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
It's a reasonable post and I think many of your concerns are fair - again, I'm certainly not suggesting Southgate is anything like an elite-level manager nor that he doesn't have some very obviously flaws in his approach, but I have found a lot of the fall-out to Sunday night to be over the top. I think the stuff about the last 10 years is harsh - in the last 3 tournaments we've lost a QF to France with a missed penalty, a final to Italy on penalties, and a semi-final in extra time to a very good Croatia side. I think it's really hard to argue that losing as finalists, semi-finalists and quarter-finalists in consecutive tournaments, all in games of exceptionally fine margins, is anything close to a disaster or even an underperformance. You mention Spain, Germany, Italy for example; Spain lost to Russia in the last 16 in 2018, semi-final to Italy in 2020, lost to Morocco in the last 16 in 2022. Germany failed to get out of their group in WC 18 (losing to South Korea and Mexico), lost to us in last 16 in Euro 20, and then failed to get out of the group again in WC22. Italy didn't even qualify in 2018 or 2022, but won the Euros in 2020. It's that sort of context I feel is missing from your analysis. I agree with you on Trent and I don't think we'll see it again this tournament. I don't like the framing of 'getting the best out of Foden'- there has to also be some onus on the player to step up and produce, and he never really has in an England shirt, despite a variety of roles over the years. We absolutely have used friendlies to try new tactics and we've significantly changed our tactical approach from previous tournaments - we've phased out a number of key players from previous tournaments; Henderson, Phillips, Maguire, Rashford, Grealish, Sterling, and replaced them with players more adept at a high-pressing system like Gordon and Bowen. Every squad in the tournament probably still has unanswered questions in terms of a couple of spots in the starting XI, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that. I think the context is fair and useful. However I still think we've underperformed. Fine losses they may be, but we've still lost pretty much every time we've come up against a top team. And Spain, Germany and Italy have all had some sketchy tournaments. However the German and Spanish examples above, were during times of rebuild, and after being hugely successful. German with the WC in '14, and the Spanish winning a WC and 2 Euros. Ital have been more win or bust. Then to address some of the other points: Foden, he does need to step up, of course. But he's a Spanish type player, pass move, fluid, less about individual but more hte sum of hte parts etc. We have zero fluidity and play slowly, so we aren't giving him the conditions to thrive. I think we've tested new players, but I'm not sure on tactical approaches. We've also not tried any new formations, nor (to my recollection) have we ever tried sticking a 2nd CF on and going more direct. Never tried putting Trent as a wing back. Didnt try a left footed left back in either warm up games. I know we agree on the Trent issue, but its insane. GS have used Henderson in that role for what seams like a decade (despite his dwindling physical qualities), so he obviously understands what Hendo brought to the team and its value of enabling others to play. So he rightly drops him, but seemingly with very little plan on how that role it to be filled. And then tries to fill it with a completely different style of player. Its insanity to me.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| CrazyBadger Ware 18 Jun 24 10.12am |
|
|---|---|
|
regarding Foden, there is no doubting that he is world class, but he doesn't appear so for his country. Plenty of players in the past have had this levelled at them. In a utopian world, and from the natioanl managers perspective, all their players will come from the same team, as the more dispersed they become the longer it'll take for the team to 'gel'.
"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one" |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Eaglehamster Storrington 18 Jun 24 10.27am |
|
|---|---|
|
Judging by GS's comments in reaction to the win, it appears he'll just carry on as usual for Thursday's tie with Denmark. He really can't see the problems can he. I'm tempted to watch tennis.
I have now sufficient funds to last me the rest of my life. Provided I don't buy anything. |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 18 Jun 24 10.32am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by MrRobbo
I think the context is fair and useful. However I still think we've underperformed. Fine losses they may be, but we've still lost pretty much every time we've come up against a top team. And Spain, Germany and Italy have all had some sketchy tournaments. However the German and Spanish examples above, were during times of rebuild, and after being hugely successful. German with the WC in '14, and the Spanish winning a WC and 2 Euros. Ital have been more win or bust. Then to address some of the other points: Foden, he does need to step up, of course. But he's a Spanish type player, pass move, fluid, less about individual but more hte sum of hte parts etc. We have zero fluidity and play slowly, so we aren't giving him the conditions to thrive. I think we've tested new players, but I'm not sure on tactical approaches. We've also not tried any new formations, nor (to my recollection) have we ever tried sticking a 2nd CF on and going more direct. Never tried putting Trent as a wing back. Didnt try a left footed left back in either warm up games. I know we agree on the Trent issue, but its insane. GS have used Henderson in that role for what seams like a decade (despite his dwindling physical qualities), so he obviously understands what Hendo brought to the team and its value of enabling others to play. So he rightly drops him, but seemingly with very little plan on how that role it to be filled. And then tries to fill it with a completely different style of player. Its insanity to me. I just find it hard to conclude that we've underperformed for losing a penalty shootout, for example. If we win that shootout, the last 10 years is viewed as a major success and everyone is happy. That's the nature of knockout tournament football, I know, but I think in terms of assessing the team's performance, I find it hard to call that underperformance. Foden has certainly been shifted out of position slightly to accommodate Bellingham, but a player of his talent should still be impacting games far more than he is currently, regardless of role. It is clearly a revamped tactical approach - Bellingham is playing right up alongside Kane, who is not dropping deep in between the lines anymore. Grealish used to hug the left flank to add width on that side, but we now have Foden drifting more centrally and Trippier keeping the width. The new system is broadly built around Bellingham and giving him the freedom to get around the pitch and press aggressively - it's why the likes of Gordon and Bowen have been preferred to Grealish and Rashford, because they are far more adept at a high-pressing game. It's also partly why Foden is struggling to make an impact because he doesn't press particularly well at all.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Eaglehamster Storrington 18 Jun 24 10.42am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I just find it hard to conclude that we've underperformed for losing a penalty shootout, for example. If we win that shootout, the last 10 years is viewed as a major success and everyone is happy. That's the nature of knockout tournament football, I know, but I think in terms of assessing the team's performance, I find it hard to call that underperformance. Foden has certainly been shifted out of position slightly to accommodate Bellingham, but a player of his talent should still be impacting games far more than he is currently, regardless of role. It is clearly a revamped tactical approach - Bellingham is playing right up alongside Kane, who is not dropping deep in between the lines anymore. Grealish used to hug the left flank to add width on that side, but we now have Foden drifting more centrally and Trippier keeping the width. The new system is broadly built around Bellingham and giving him the freedom to get around the pitch and press aggressively - it's why the likes of Gordon and Bowen have been preferred to Grealish and Rashford, because they are far more adept at a high-pressing game. It's also partly why Foden is struggling to make an impact because he doesn't press particularly well at all. Yeah I can see your logic. Let me put it this way: Has GS put together a great team or even a very good team? I don't think so. The players have been available, especially now but he has never been capable of getting the right blend or being a skilled tactician. When have you ever felt confident about England's chances against class opponents? He just goes on using the same tactics which against the best teams will fail. Given the talent at his disposal, he's underachieved.
I have now sufficient funds to last me the rest of my life. Provided I don't buy anything. |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 18 Jun 24 10.50am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Eaglehamster
Yeah I can see your logic. Let me put it this way: Has GS put together a great team or even a very good team? I don't think so. The players have been available, especially now but he has never been capable of getting the right blend or being a skilled tactician. When have you ever felt confident about England's chances against class opponents? He just goes on using the same tactics which against the best teams will fail. Given the talent at his disposal, he's underachieved.
I feel like I'm repeating myself a bit, but yes I do consider a team who lost a final on penalties and a semi-final in extra time in consecutive tournaments as a very good team. I think I used this comparison previously; City were the best team in Europe for a number of years before finally winning the trophy in 22/23. They lost a final 0-1 in 20/21 and then a semi-final in 21/22, before winning it the following year - I'm sure we'd all agree City were a very good team in 20/21 and 21/22, but knockout tournaments are decided on incredibly fine margins.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| MrRobbo Chaldon 18 Jun 24 11.08am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I just find it hard to conclude that we've underperformed for losing a penalty shootout, for example. If we win that shootout, the last 10 years is viewed as a major success and everyone is happy. That's the nature of knockout tournament football, I know, but I think in terms of assessing the team's performance, I find it hard to call that underperformance. Foden has certainly been shifted out of position slightly to accommodate Bellingham, but a player of his talent should still be impacting games far more than he is currently, regardless of role. It is clearly a revamped tactical approach - Bellingham is playing right up alongside Kane, who is not dropping deep in between the lines anymore. Grealish used to hug the left flank to add width on that side, but we now have Foden drifting more centrally and Trippier keeping the width. The new system is broadly built around Bellingham and giving him the freedom to get around the pitch and press aggressively - it's why the likes of Gordon and Bowen have been preferred to Grealish and Rashford, because they are far more adept at a high-pressing game. It's also partly why Foden is struggling to make an impact because he doesn't press particularly well at all. That's fair, v fine margins in some of these games. Still feel like we are going backwards a bit. I'm all for giving Bellingham the keys to the city, and if that means no playing Foden I'll all for it.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Eaglehamster Storrington 18 Jun 24 12.20pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I feel like I'm repeating myself a bit, but yes I do consider a team who lost a final on penalties and a semi-final in extra time in consecutive tournaments as a very good team. I think I used this comparison previously; City were the best team in Europe for a number of years before finally winning the trophy in 22/23. They lost a final 0-1 in 20/21 and then a semi-final in 21/22, before winning it the following year - I'm sure we'd all agree City were a very good team in 20/21 and 21/22, but knockout tournaments are decided on incredibly fine margins. Well we'll have to agree to differ. To me GS has never put a side together that inspires confidence that we can beat the best. And he doesn't now. Let's see.
I have now sufficient funds to last me the rest of my life. Provided I don't buy anything. |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| MFW94 Sutton 18 Jun 24 1.20pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Very rarely does a side have to beat all the top sides to win a tournament - look at germany and brazils run to 2002 WC final (brazils hardest game was us and USA played Germany). So to slag Southgate off for 'always' getting an easy draw is harsh. I do think Southgate is limited tactically but then again what top top managers are international managers. France fans don't really like Deschamps pragmatic approach but it wins you tournaments more often then not. Greece in 04, Portugal in 16, even France and Germanys world cup wins were built in being organized and more not to lose. The thing with Southgate is a bit of a Hodgson syndrome, i love Southgate for what has done for England but he's too reactionary and not proactive with his subs and ultimately that could cost us and has done previously. However, who do people expect to be England manager when he does leave? Potter? Lampard? It will most probably be Lee Carsley who is currently doing the 21s Edited by MFW94 (18 Jun 2024 1.24pm)
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
Login / RegisterNew users
Registration is now on our new message board
Existing users
To login with your existing username you will need to convert your account over to the new message board.
Sponsors
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2024 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.