Isn’t this, bar social conservatism, just a description of the left today? That’s also assuming multiculturalism (or the support for it) can be used in the place of nationalism, in its being highly performative and providing a common identity. Of course they’ve gone one further in not only being hostile to the freedom of speech but also pushing the forcible use of language (pronouns etc).

It feels a bit similar to declaring that promoting or arguing the case for indigenous peoples is ‘far right’ but then supporting the case for Palestinians? Don’t these groups also have sincere hostility towards Jews just like the Nazis too? Or have I got that wrong? Genuine questions.

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

Nah it's very complicated but the far right should perhaps be better described as the authoritarian right - if you use political compass theory rather than the spectrum (or more embarrassingly, horseshoe theory which a few on here seem to subscribe to). Left and right are generally more for economic matters - the right favour total deregulation of markets and believe that the market will police itself (in its most extreme form advocating for trickle-down economics, the believe that wealth will naturally flow down the social order if those at the top get rich enough), along with non-intervention (or laissez-faire) approach to non-essential services (quite what is deemed non-essential varies as seen by the US view that healthcare is non-essential) - conversely, the economic left favours regulation of the markets to prevent abuse, state running of essential services, and government intervention to ensure that money reaches the lowest earners in society to prevent wealth getting hoarded at the top. Social attitudes *can* (but rarely does) fall into left/right too on matters relating to social change, as conservatives prefer to keep things as they are/were where as socially progressives advocate that change is good. However this isn't always the case, or it gets misinterpreted, as it is easily possible to be economically left wing yet socially conservative (see: China), or economically right wing yet socially liberal (see: America most of the time).

Then we get to the authoritarian/libertarian split. The Authoritarians prefer authority and cultural hegemony (to the point of advocating unelected heads of state and governments) in order to ensure law and order in society. The extremety of which varies, with the utmost authoritarians delving into totalitarianism, which involves total control of the population in the name of protecting the peace (state intervention of society is a separate issue entirely to economic state intervention - see how the Nazis favoured private corporations and instead of nationalising them, just gave business owners incentives to support them). Libertarianism in the political compass involves opposing homogeny and promoting people over state for social matters.

As such things can be authoritarian left, authoritarian right, liberterian left, libertarian right, centrist or anything in between. Examples of authoritarian left include the Communist Party of Russia and China (although China has embraced free market capitalism and drifted away from the left over time). Authoritarian right examples include the Nazis and most military dictatorships. Libertarian left generally encompasses the majority of anarchist groups (the First and Second Internationals were attempts at uniting anarchists and socialists due to shared opinions on many things, but both collapsed due to key irreconcilable differences) - although there are right wing anarchists like anarcho-capitalists - and most liberal left wing parties today such as the Green Party or modern progressive socialists. Libertarian right tends to involve the US libertarians who believe in total de-regulation and minimising the state to near nothing, or anarcho-capitalists who believe that the state is unnecessary because the capitalist system and free market will be able to meet all of society's needs.

I'm really simplifying a lot of this otherwise I'll end up writing an entire book.

PS Hitler himself wrote that he chose to call the Nazis national socialist because he wanted to co-opt the term to improve the "electability" of the party. He admitted he opposed socialism in all its forms but knew using the word would get support.

Milkshakes Against Fascism

Because Ireland has a relatively small population size compared to England, around 5 to 6 million if I remember correctly that means that these changes become far more noticable far quicker.

For anyone with any attachment to being Irish actually meaning anything to them it must be like death by a thousand cuts to watch your leaders sell out.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Nov 2023 9.52am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

So yes that mirrors a lot of my understanding (but with far better and accurate articulation than I could muster so kudos) however I have been making an underlying point.

Neither the alleged 'far right' as we saw yesterday nor much of the loudest voices most prevalent in society, sometimes literally screaming these days, really fit well into binary political monikers of left/right. I would dare to suggest blokes fighting Police in the streets under the influence or those wanting to impose their totalitarian, radical, social thinking on the world aren't defined by their economic policies... not on the ground anyway.

It's a sad state of affairs and one I have long feared, whereby the further to the so called 'left' society has drifted (I'm now using it as a blanket), the more this has begun resembling totalitarianism and the more extreme opposition it will provoke. The term 'silent majority' is one I also consider to be incorrectly employed as I would suggest it should be used to identify those who want neither factions of extremist thinking to be anywhere close to power and who staunchly oppose authoritarianism/totalitarianism. As it stands, we do have one of these groups dictating things unfortunately. The more they do, the more any opposing voice will be designated as 'far right' as this is the common tactic of any extremist thinking - to paint themselves as 'moderate' and any opposition as the extreme.

If (big if) society begins to further oppose the authoritarian/totalitarian 'left', and the more they are told they are 'far right', the more resembling of this moniker they will become. Personally, I strongly dislike the current and evermore concerning zeitgeist. With the same emotion, I fear the uprising of an authoritarian right as an equal reaction to it's continued existence. What we saw over the weekend however was not this, although it may always be the early, very mild rumblings indicative of something to follow. It will just be a reaction to the initial action in any instance though.

Edited by Nicholas91 (13 Nov 2023 11.08am)

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

Moreover the service monitors are securing and the secure monitors are servicing. It's a triple threat.

it has less to do with the size of our population, and everything to do with the size of our Welfare Payments.

Employers cannot get locals to work for them. Certainly not for any minimum-wage jobs. So they must import a workforce. Added to the enormous numbers who arrive in and go straight onto the Longterm dole. This creates a housing crisis, and thus Irish University leavers all emigrate away....and you have the end of the historic Nation - replaced with something new. Double quick time.

And lucrative jobs ? in Tech Giants......like the Premier League, its an international labour market. Only a very small proportion of those jobs go to irish candidates. Just like the tiny proportion of footballers at Palace who have Grandparents from SE25.

Lucrative Public sector jobs ? see the link below.

1921 Partitioned Ireland into NI and ROI. Two different nations with different identities. Today its difficult to see much difference between the two. The same shops selling the same stuff with the same staff who never heard of Basil Fawlty.

[Link]

Edited by PalazioVecchio (13 Nov 2023 11.36am)

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford