This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In
Harry Beever Newbury 06 Dec 17 8.08am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Park Road
For those who don't know, Halal is a special way of killing animals (for religious reasons) without any stunning or bolt pistols. Instead, a sharp knife is used to cut the jugular vein which apparantly stops all feeling before the animal realises. Also, the slaughter is done in a more "humane" environment, apparantly no difference in cruelty than our methods. Or in other words bleeding to death while still conscious. I know which way i’d prefer to go. How do you explain that cutting the jugular stops all feeling? Also how is it a more humane environment?
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Park Road 06 Dec 17 8.12am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Harry Beever
Or in other words bleeding to death while still conscious. I know which way i’d prefer to go. How do you explain that cutting the jugular stops all feeling? Also how is it a more humane environment? I'm just the messenger and going on evidence compiled by various scientists.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Harry Beever Newbury 06 Dec 17 8.23am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Park Road
I'm just the messenger and going on evidence compiled by various scientists. Which evidence? There is definitely a humane way to kill something. It’s with the instant loss of consciousness and pain that is delivered by a captive bolt gun or by stunning prior to exsanguination. 80% of halal meat is stunned prior to slaughter which i’m fine with. It’s the 20% that I’m not. Attaching link from the British Veterinary Association regarding their position on welfare at slaughter who should have a decent understanding about welfare. Anyway let’s save this for another thread as starting to stray off topic...
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
nickgusset Shizzlehurst 06 Dec 17 8.27am | |
---|---|
How long before a few Muslims burning poppies is held up to show the lady at the checkout in my local Sainsbury's should be viewed with suspicion?
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Park Road 06 Dec 17 8.33am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Harry Beever
Which evidence? There is definitely a humane way to kill something. It’s with the instant loss of consciousness and pain that is delivered by a captive bolt gun or by stunning prior to exsanguination. 80% of halal meat is stunned prior to slaughter which i’m fine with. It’s the 20% that I’m not. Attaching link from the British Veterinary Association regarding their position on welfare at slaughter who should have a decent understanding about welfare. [red]Anyway let’s save this for another thread as starting to stray off topic... OK but I'll leave you with this considering you asked. The question of how an animal should be slaughtered to avoid cruelty is a different one. It is true that when the blood flows from the throat of an animal it looks violent, but just because meat is now bought neatly and hygienically packaged on supermarket shelves does not mean the animal didn’t have to die? Non-Islamic slaughter methods dictate that the animal should be rendered unconscious before slaughter. This is usually achieved by stunning or electrocution. Is it less painful to shoot a bolt into a sheep’s brain or to ring a chicken’s neck than to slit its throat? To watch the procedure does not objectively tell us what the animal feels.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Midlands Eagle 06 Dec 17 10.07am | |
---|---|
I've deleted a few posts and would be grateful if everyone could stick to discussing the topic without the need for sniping and posturing
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Hrolf The Ganger 06 Dec 17 11.18am | |
---|---|
Originally posted by nickgusset
How long before a few Muslims burning poppies is held up to show the lady at the checkout in my local Sainsbury's should be viewed with suspicion? The same as Germans, Italians and Irish were in the past.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Harry Beever Newbury 06 Dec 17 12.06pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Park Road
OK but I'll leave you with this considering you asked. The question of how an animal should be slaughtered to avoid cruelty is a different one. It is true that when the blood flows from the throat of an animal it looks violent, but just because meat is now bought neatly and hygienically packaged on supermarket shelves does not mean the animal didn’t have to die? Non-Islamic slaughter methods dictate that the animal should be rendered unconscious before slaughter. This is usually achieved by stunning or electrocution. Is it less painful to shoot a bolt into a sheep’s brain or to ring a chicken’s neck than to slit its throat? To watch the procedure does not objectively tell us what the animal feels. On Midlands Eagle’s request will make this my last post on this I promise! EEG’s and ECG’s measure nothing but electrical activity in the brain and heart. They are not a direct reflection of pain and suffering. Currently, to my understanding, it remains impossible to objectively measure pain. If it was possible the number of whiplash claims post car accident would evaporate over night. This means we are still in a position of judging pain relatively crudely, principally based on behaviour, observing motion for orthopaedic pain and trusting people describing it. This makes it very challenging for doctors dealing with infants, people with severe learning difficulties or diseases affecting communication and vets with animals. It’s only really possible to judge your own pain and project it, making the assumption that someone else feels the same following the same stimulus that you have historically experienced. I used to think people with back pain were making a fuss over nothing until I started to have problems myself! I would like to read the study you refer to but to me it sounds overly simplistic. I have worked in a slaughter house, a long time ago. They are visually gruesome places and not for the faint hearted but I was satisfied with the respect the staff gave to the animals and the humane manner in which they were killed. A captive bolt to the brain sounds horrendous but it instantaneously kills, which slitting a throat does not. Making an assessment on what it’s like to die is impossible as no one has come back to tell us. I have never understood people saying “I hear drowning is supposed to be a nice way to die”! As if anyone’s returned and said “that was great, far better then overdosing on heroin”! For the time being we have to acknowledge that we don’t know for sure what’s happening during the process of an animal dieing. I know that when I cut myself with a sharp knife it hurts, not instantly but it does and we simply can’t be confident that these animals will die quickly enough to not suffer. Logic tells me that the kindest death is therefore likely the swiftest. I’ll leave it there but respect your right to disagree!
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Dec 17 12.29pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Very nice, but in your world, nothing is ever entirely true or untrue. That means that your assertion is not true either. It establishes that truth is as subjective as any experience. Facts aren't truth, they're evidence of the truth. I think, being a scientist by background, and a rationalist, that only evidence has value. Opinion and supposition, are meaningless.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Dec 17 12.32pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by crystal balls
That graph doesn't show rape statistics in isolation; it includes a number of offences of a sexual nature. Figures for reported rape offences throughout the period have remained within the 5,500 - 6,500 per annum level, while convictions have remained around 190-200 per annum. I find it amusing that people are arguing over things like ethnicity, and religion, when the real scandal here is how 6500 reported rapes can end up with 200 convictions. That's a real f**king issue.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Jimenez SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 06 Dec 17 12.36pm | |
---|---|
Certainly Halal killing should be banned It is in Denmark & even Belgium. Kind of strange how many animal activists steer well clear of this subject but are all over Fox Hunting, Mink Farming, Pharmaceutical research & even Foie Gras. I wonder why?
Pro USA & Israel |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Dec 17 12.37pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Harry Beever
Making an assessment on what it’s like to die is impossible as no one has come back to tell us. I have never understood people saying “I hear drowning is supposed to be a nice way to die”! As if anyone’s returned and said “that was great, far better then overdosing on heroin”! Its not, according to people who have been rescued from drowning, its incredibly painful way to die. The mistake I think is that people are thinking its like slow asphyxia (over hours) which is apparently fairly peaceful, as the body slowly shuts down due to lack of oxygen over a long period of time - and the individual loses consciousness long before the physical pain of oxygen deprivation sets in. For the record, a overdoes of drugs like heroin, which is a painkiller, does seem to be a remarkably pleasant way to die - It generally causes the loss of consciousness before the organs slow to a stop.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Registration is now on our new message board
To login with your existing username you will need to convert your account over to the new message board.
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2024 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.