The dangerous liberal world of California

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jamiemartin721 Reading 05 Jan 18 11.49am
Originally posted by matt_himself It’s not as if public massacres are a thing of the past in Australiaor the UK, is it? Manchester, Borough Market, Melbourne. I don’t think we should look down our noses at others when our society produces bloodshed on a regular basis. I think the fact we can point to singular instances kind of proves the point. We had a mass shooting spree in Cumbria in 2010 - but the key here and its the important one, is that we have had three in my lifetime (Hungerford, Dumblaine and Cumbria). 1987, 1996 and 2010 - Which whilst tragic is almost comparable to any given year in the US. These things will always occur as there are reasonable access to guns in the UK but the key is the frequency, mental health treatement and detection, and restriction of firearms based on specific purpose of use. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 05 Jan 18 11.49am

Originally posted by matt_himself

It’s not as if public massacres are a thing of the past in Australiaor the UK, is it?

Manchester, Borough Market, Melbourne.

I don’t think we should look down our noses at others when our society produces bloodshed on a regular basis.

I think the fact we can point to singular instances kind of proves the point. We had a mass shooting spree in Cumbria in 2010 - but the key here and its the important one, is that we have had three in my lifetime (Hungerford, Dumblaine and Cumbria). 1987, 1996 and 2010 - Which whilst tragic is almost comparable to any given year in the US.

These things will always occur as there are reasonable access to guns in the UK but the key is the frequency, mental health treatement and detection, and restriction of firearms based on specific purpose of use.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Sheks Crows Eye Virginia 05 Jan 18 11.51am
Its an editorial, yes, but still food for thought. [Link]
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Sheks Crows Eye

Virginia 05 Jan 18 11.51am

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Its an editorial, yes, but still food for thought.

[Link]

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Kermit8 Hevon 05 Jan 18 12.05pm
Originally posted by Sheks Crows Eye Its an editorial, yes, but still food for thought. [Link] It's trying to rationalise nearly half a million gun deaths in the last decade or so. It also steadfastly refuses to praise the UK and Australian changes in gun law and is basically saying 'no big deal'. If that article is food for thought it's bullsh1t in a burger bun and likely written with some NRA dollars being stuffed into a back pocket. That last bit is a giveaway - "A reduction in gun deaths is most likely to come from finding smaller chances for victories and expanding those solutions as much as possible. We save lives by focusing on a range of tactics to protect the different kinds of potential victims and reforming potential killers, not from sweeping bans focused on the guns themselves." Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 05 Jan 18 12.05pm

Originally posted by Sheks Crows Eye

Its an editorial, yes, but still food for thought.

[Link]

It's trying to rationalise nearly half a million gun deaths in the last decade or so. It also steadfastly refuses to praise the UK and Australian changes in gun law and is basically saying 'no big deal'. If that article is food for thought it's bullsh1t in a burger bun and likely written with some NRA dollars being stuffed into a back pocket.

That last bit is a giveaway - "A reduction in gun deaths is most likely to come from finding smaller chances for victories and expanding those solutions as much as possible. We save lives by focusing on a range of tactics to protect the different kinds of potential victims and reforming potential killers, not from sweeping bans focused on the guns themselves."

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Sheks Crows Eye Virginia 05 Jan 18 12.19pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 It's trying to rationalise nearly half a million gun deaths in the last decade or so. It also steadfastly refuses to praise the UK and Australian changes in gun law and is basically saying 'no big deal'. If that article is food for thought it's bullsh1t in a burger bun and likely written with some NRA dollars being stuffed into a back pocket. That last bit is a giveaway - "A reduction in gun deaths is most likely to come from finding smaller chances for victories and expanding those solutions as much as possible. We save lives by focusing on a range of tactics to protect the different kinds of potential victims and reforming potential killers, not from sweeping bans focused on the guns themselves." I doubt the NRA would fund anything in the editorial section from The Post, or Five Thirty Eight - but have it your way. Just wanted to add to the discussion.
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Sheks Crows Eye

Virginia 05 Jan 18 12.19pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

I doubt the NRA would fund anything in the editorial section from The Post, or Five Thirty Eight - but have it your way. Just wanted to add to the discussion.

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Stirlingsays 05 Jan 18 12.21pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think there is a case to be made for having professional armed security guards at schools and putting people through gun detection entering and exiting the schools. Not affordable.....Everytime I turn on the TV news I'm listening to some lobbyist implicitly saying that they need more money for this...more money for that.....I imagine it's little different in the US. People rarely stand up for the taxpayer who doesn't want to be paying more tax on these shows. Also, 'gun detection' is all very nice but when you can just turn up with a shotgun and blow away barriers in front of you....it's effectiveness is limited. The idea that schools can 'prevent' access by a well armed individual is absurdist.....You would literally have to turn them into something else. Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Just arming staff and teachers is a recipe for disaster. When the solution for school shootings is allowing more guns in schools, its only adding to the problem, because you're creating an environment that allows people to walk into schools with firearms - on the hope they can prevent a shooting and not escalate the problem. Also its going to be very difficult when the police arrive on scene to ascertain who is the shooter if you have a number of people armed. Not to mention the cost of training and paying staff, who may not be prepaired for becoming a 'milita'. There are also other measures that don't include arming staff at schools. Then you have the problem of what to do, when the person who snaps and goes postal is a member of staff. What really needs to happen is funding, sufficent to ensure that schools are safe from people bringing in firearms and a reduction in the access to firearms - notably to minors and students. But that would a) cost b) cost the gun sales. Just putting more guns into the equation is an absurdist stance, based on wishful thinking. The goal should be to prevent these things occuring, not creating a scenario where if they do, there is a solution. Personally, I would have handguns locked away in secured locations at opposite ends of a school for the head and one other high responsibility staff member who requires training. The point about the risk of staff going postal is a valid one.....but this is also true of armed police everywhere. It's been decades since families had children to mourn in our schools....but for the US it's every year. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Jan 2018 3.25pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

05 Jan 18 12.21pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I think there is a case to be made for having professional armed security guards at schools and putting people through gun detection entering and exiting the schools.

Not affordable.....Everytime I turn on the TV news I'm listening to some lobbyist implicitly saying that they need more money for this...more money for that.....I imagine it's little different in the US.

People rarely stand up for the taxpayer who doesn't want to be paying more tax on these shows.

Also, 'gun detection' is all very nice but when you can just turn up with a shotgun and blow away barriers in front of you....it's effectiveness is limited.

The idea that schools can 'prevent' access by a well armed individual is absurdist.....You would literally have to turn them into something else.

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Just arming staff and teachers is a recipe for disaster. When the solution for school shootings is allowing more guns in schools, its only adding to the problem, because you're creating an environment that allows people to walk into schools with firearms - on the hope they can prevent a shooting and not escalate the problem.

Also its going to be very difficult when the police arrive on scene to ascertain who is the shooter if you have a number of people armed. Not to mention the cost of training and paying staff, who may not be prepaired for becoming a 'milita'.

There are also other measures that don't include arming staff at schools.

Then you have the problem of what to do, when the person who snaps and goes postal is a member of staff.

What really needs to happen is funding, sufficent to ensure that schools are safe from people bringing in firearms and a reduction in the access to firearms - notably to minors and students. But that would a) cost b) cost the gun sales.

Just putting more guns into the equation is an absurdist stance, based on wishful thinking. The goal should be to prevent these things occuring, not creating a scenario where if they do, there is a solution.

Personally, I would have handguns locked away in secured locations at opposite ends of a school for the head and one other high responsibility staff member who requires training.

The point about the risk of staff going postal is a valid one.....but this is also true of armed police everywhere.

It's been decades since families had children to mourn in our schools....but for the US it's every year.

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Jan 2018 3.25pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Kermit8 Hevon 05 Jan 18 12.36pm
Originally posted by Sheks Crows Eye I doubt the NRA would fund anything in the editorial section from The Post, or Five Thirty Eight - but have it your way. Just wanted to add to the discussion. Just did a bit more research on the author's findings and seemingly she has been ignoring other relevant info which challenges her findings whilst over-emphasising the data which, of course, props up her angle. My previous suspicion is further aroused. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 05 Jan 18 12.36pm

Originally posted by Sheks Crows Eye

I doubt the NRA would fund anything in the editorial section from The Post, or Five Thirty Eight - but have it your way. Just wanted to add to the discussion.

Just did a bit more research on the author's findings and seemingly she has been ignoring other relevant info which challenges her findings whilst over-emphasising the data which, of course, props up her angle.

My previous suspicion is further aroused.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Sheks Crows Eye Virginia 05 Jan 18 12.43pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Just did a bit more research on the author's findings and seemingly she has been ignoring other relevant info which challenges her findings whilst over-emphasising the data which, of course, props up her angle. My previous suspicion is further aroused. Can you provide a link? I'd like to challenge my own thoughts on the matter if you don't mind.
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Sheks Crows Eye

Virginia 05 Jan 18 12.43pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

My previous suspicion is further aroused.

Can you provide a link? I'd like to challenge my own thoughts on the matter if you don't mind.

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Kermit8 Hevon 05 Jan 18 1.41pm
Originally posted by Sheks Crows Eye Can you provide a link? I'd like to challenge my own thoughts on the matter if you don't mind. Tap the writer's name into google as I think it was Huffington but can't be sure as I read a few. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 05 Jan 18 1.41pm

Originally posted by Sheks Crows Eye

Can you provide a link? I'd like to challenge my own thoughts on the matter if you don't mind.

Tap the writer's name into google as I think it was Huffington but can't be sure as I read a few.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 05 Jan 18 2.39pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Personally, I would have handguns locked away in secured locations at opposite ends of a school for the head and one other high responsibility staff member who requires training. The point about the risk of staff going postal is a valid one.....but this is also true of armed police everywhere. It's been decades since families had children to moan in our schools....but for the US it's every year. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Jan 2018 12.23pm) This would be a reasonable compromise - the only problem being in terms of access. But in the current US climate, where any kind of gun legislation, regardless of how sensible it might be, is 'shot down' (sic) then it might be the only viable option. Of course if the country isn't prepaired to pay for reasonable security measures, then the reality is they have to live with mass murder of their kids, work mates and people going about their daily lives. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 05 Jan 18 2.39pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Personally, I would have handguns locked away in secured locations at opposite ends of a school for the head and one other high responsibility staff member who requires training.

The point about the risk of staff going postal is a valid one.....but this is also true of armed police everywhere.

It's been decades since families had children to moan in our schools....but for the US it's every year.

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Jan 2018 12.23pm)

This would be a reasonable compromise - the only problem being in terms of access. But in the current US climate, where any kind of gun legislation, regardless of how sensible it might be, is 'shot down' (sic) then it might be the only viable option.

Of course if the country isn't prepaired to pay for reasonable security measures, then the reality is they have to live with mass murder of their kids, work mates and people going about their daily lives.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 05 Jan 18 3.02pm
[Tweet Link] Edited by Penge Eagle (05 Jan 2018 3.03pm)
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 05 Jan 18 3.02pm

[Tweet Link]

Edited by Penge Eagle (05 Jan 2018 3.03pm)

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Stirlingsays 05 Jan 18 3.33pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 This would be a reasonable compromise - the only problem being in terms of access. But in the current US climate, where any kind of gun legislation, regardless of how sensible it might be, is 'shot down' (sic) then it might be the only viable option. Of course if the country isn't prepaired to pay for reasonable security measures, then the reality is they have to live with mass murder of their kids, work mates and people going about their daily lives. When Obama managed to change healthcare.....which Clinton had failed on before him.....I thought great...a better system....no more people's lives being destroyed over bills for accidents...for example. But of course...it has since transpired that the system is a whole lot worse for most people who actually pay for it...they pay so much more than us.....And that's because this is a cultural and structural problem......The private insurance healthcare system is so ingrained that you would have to literally vote it out of existence and start again with a clean slate. And America isn't going to do that.....it's the same problem with gun control. But America is for Americans to run and I respect that....for example, when people were telling America where they should have their embassy in Israel....I thought it was a massive cheek. It's a s*** sandwich....As most on here know, I'm pro American..but I'm just glad that...for all our problems that we have a better situation with healthcare and guns. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Jan 2018 3.37pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

05 Jan 18 3.33pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

When Obama managed to change healthcare.....which Clinton had failed on before him.....I thought great...a better system....no more people's lives being destroyed over bills for accidents...for example.

But of course...it has since transpired that the system is a whole lot worse for most people who actually pay for it...they pay so much more than us.....And that's because this is a cultural and structural problem......The private insurance healthcare system is so ingrained that you would have to literally vote it out of existence and start again with a clean slate.

And America isn't going to do that.....it's the same problem with gun control. But America is for Americans to run and I respect that....for example, when people were telling America where they should have their embassy in Israel....I thought it was a massive cheek.

It's a s*** sandwich....As most on here know, I'm pro American..but I'm just glad that...for all our problems that we have a better situation with healthcare and guns.

Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Jan 2018 3.37pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Ray in Houston Houston 05 Jan 18 5.12pm
Originally posted by Penge Eagle Moving the goal posts here, Ray! Nope. You need to at the net effect of guns on the streets in the hands of both good and bad guys (and toddlers, who account for circa 50 deaths a year). You don't want to, because it blows up your argument more comprehensively than Trump's big button. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 05 Jan 18 5.12pm

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Originally posted by Penge Eagle

Moving the goal posts here, Ray!

Nope. You need to at the net effect of guns on the streets in the hands of both good and bad guys (and toddlers, who account for circa 50 deaths a year). You don't want to, because it blows up your argument more comprehensively than Trump's big button.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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