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Venezuela - socialist paradise

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NickRobinson 09 Dec 15 7.29pm
Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion. Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself. You are merely trying to redefine socialism. The core of socialism is taking into public ownership (actually running things really badly by an inefficient state bureaucracy not remotely owned by the public) all means of production, distribution and exchange. You then say that countries that have a health service are partially socialist. Saudia Arabia and Israel have what amounts to National Health Services - do you regard those countries as socialist?
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NickRobinson

09 Dec 15 7.29pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.

Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

You are merely trying to redefine socialism. The core of socialism is taking into public ownership (actually running things really badly by an inefficient state bureaucracy not remotely owned by the public) all means of production, distribution and exchange.

You then say that countries that have a health service are partially socialist. Saudia Arabia and Israel have what amounts to National Health Services - do you regard those countries as socialist?

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matt_himself Matataland 09 Dec 15 9.53pm
Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 5.03pm Quote matt_himself at 09 Dec 2015 3.25pm Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion. Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself. Canada... NZ... high taxes... No. You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss. Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might? 14th paragraph onward [Link] Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters. Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours. That's 5 years old. It depends on your criteria. [Link] Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30% It's not a "think" answer, it's factual. Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about? You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely? I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies. I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field. Michael, what you say is ill informed and largely based on assumption rather than anything with merit. Having a social welfare programme is different from being socialist. This is what you plainly do not see, or want to see. For example, One Nation politics is capitalism with social welfare built in not with a 'bit' of socialism. I fail to see how you can be a 'bit' socialist. Socialism is an ideology seeking control of markets. All of the countries you mention are free market economies running social welfare programmes. What does a 'bit' socialist mean? It's like saying someone is a bit gay, it is meaningless and disingenuous. What you are trying to do is convince yourself that some sort of 'third way', as espoused by Tony Blair and French politicians exists which provides the best of both Worlds. It doesn't and won't happen. Cue a s* load of years old internet links provided to back up your spurious 'thoughts'. You are way too narrow minded and vitriol-infused against anything - even the good - that has emanated from the leftist side of politics over the last century or so to have a proper discussion with Matthew. And have been for a while. Whether it's this subject or Israel or Somalis/Immigration, etc, I can't work out if it is just your sheer intellectual stubborness in order to blank out the things that challenge fairly your way of thinking or, possibly, part paranoia. Michael, I gave you a critique of where your politics was misguided. You, to quote one of your chums, went for the man not the ball. Sadly, you do this all too often because, as I said above, your posts are mostly self deluded bulls*. With the time you have on your hands, you would have thought that you could research your 'opinion' a bit more before posting. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 09 Dec 15 9.53pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 5.03pm

Quote matt_himself at 09 Dec 2015 3.25pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm

Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm

Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm

Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion.

Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself.

Canada... NZ... high taxes... No.

You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss.

Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might?

14th paragraph onward

[Link]

Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters.

Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours.

That's 5 years old.

It depends on your criteria.
[Link]

Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30%

It's not a "think" answer, it's factual.

Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about?

You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely?

I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies.

I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field.

Michael, what you say is ill informed and largely based on assumption rather than anything with merit.

Having a social welfare programme is different from being socialist. This is what you plainly do not see, or want to see. For example, One Nation politics is capitalism with social welfare built in not with a 'bit' of socialism.

I fail to see how you can be a 'bit' socialist. Socialism is an ideology seeking control of markets. All of the countries you mention are free market economies running social welfare programmes.

What does a 'bit' socialist mean? It's like saying someone is a bit gay, it is meaningless and disingenuous.

What you are trying to do is convince yourself that some sort of 'third way', as espoused by Tony Blair and French politicians exists which provides the best of both Worlds. It doesn't and won't happen.

Cue a s*** load of years old internet links provided to back up your spurious 'thoughts'.

You are way too narrow minded and vitriol-infused against anything - even the good - that has emanated from the leftist side of politics over the last century or so to have a proper discussion with Matthew. And have been for a while. Whether it's this subject or Israel or Somalis/Immigration, etc, I can't work out if it is just your sheer intellectual stubborness in order to blank out the things that challenge fairly your way of thinking or, possibly, part paranoia.

Michael, I gave you a critique of where your politics was misguided.

You, to quote one of your chums, went for the man not the ball.

Sadly, you do this all too often because, as I said above, your posts are mostly self deluded bulls***.

With the time you have on your hands, you would have thought that you could research your 'opinion' a bit more before posting.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Kermit8 Hevon 11 Dec 15 9.15am
Quote matt_himself at 09 Dec 2015 9.53pm Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 5.03pm Quote matt_himself at 09 Dec 2015 3.25pm Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 3.08pm Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.33pm Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 2.31pm Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 2.06pm Quote Kermit8 at 09 Dec 2015 1.29pm Quote Stuk at 09 Dec 2015 1.11pm Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 8.23pm Countries like Canada, New Zealand, Finland and the Netherlands have successfully combined a free market capitalist economy with a high class state run health, education and welfare systems that are supported by high taxes which prove that socialism can thrive and survive when it is implemented in a moderate fashion. Countries like China are not socialist but communist and examples like Venezuela are an anti-socialist red herring purely because those in charge have failed not the notion of socialism itself. Canada... NZ... high taxes... No. You keep saying these countries are examples of socialism but none of them are. And the ones that actually are or were, you dismiss. Well if my posts don't hit the spot with you perhaps those of C.Helman Energy Editior of Forbes might? 14th paragraph onward [Link] Maybe he knows a bit more than you or I about such matters. Do either of those two countries have high taxes? i.e. higher than ours. That's 5 years old. It depends on your criteria. [Link] Some think Nova Scotians pay 42% tax whilst others say 30% It's not a "think" answer, it's factual. Income tax rates all lower, sales tax rates all lower. What ones are you talking about? You would have to include all tax - hidden or otherwise - and not just the obvious ones to state whether one country has a lower or higher tax than the other, surely? I am just bowing to that Forbes guy. He seems to know his stuff. Nothing you or Matthew have posted has come up with anything to truly negate the seeming fact that some of the most successful countries in the world have a strong sense of moderate socialism functioning well within their societies. I don't see why that can't be admired for what it is rather than sniped at. Just because to some 'socialism' is 100% unworkable I suppose, no matter the evidence of today and in the past to say otherwise. The NHS? Free education? Etc. They must count for something via the left field. Michael, what you say is ill informed and largely based on assumption rather than anything with merit. Having a social welfare programme is different from being socialist. This is what you plainly do not see, or want to see. For example, One Nation politics is capitalism with social welfare built in not with a 'bit' of socialism. I fail to see how you can be a 'bit' socialist. Socialism is an ideology seeking control of markets. All of the countries you mention are free market economies running social welfare programmes. What does a 'bit' socialist mean? It's like saying someone is a bit gay, it is meaningless and disingenuous. What you are trying to do is convince yourself that some sort of 'third way', as espoused by Tony Blair and French politicians exists which provides the best of both Worlds. It doesn't and won't happen. Cue a s* load of years old internet links provided to back up your spurious 'thoughts'. You are way too narrow minded and vitriol-infused against anything - even the good - that has emanated from the leftist side of politics over the last century or so to have a proper discussion with Matthew. And have been for a while. Whether it's this subject or Israel or Somalis/Immigration, etc, I can't work out if it is just your sheer intellectual stubborness in order to blank out the things that challenge fairly your way of thinking or, possibly, part paranoia. Michael, I gave you a critique of where your politics was misguided. You, to quote one of your chums, went for the man not the ball. Sadly, you do this all too often because, as I said above, your posts are mostly self deluded bulls*. With the time you have on your hands, you would have thought that you could research your 'opinion' a bit more before posting. If you want to continue being obtuse and believe that the nations mentioned have no influence from socialist thinking in their day to day running then be my guest. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 11 Dec 15 9.15am

Quote matt_himself at 09 Dec 2015 9.53pm