Au revoir Jacques Delors

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Au revoir Jacques Delors

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Matov 27 Dec 23 8.16pm
[Link] A man with a vision and who strove to achieve it. Love him or loathe him, he set out what he believed in and in politics, that is worth celebrating, especially in light of the feather-weights we have at the moment. Not my cup of tea on a variety of levels but still kudos for believing in something and acting accordingly. Aint much of it about anymore. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

27 Dec 23 8.16pm

[Link]

A man with a vision and who strove to achieve it. Love him or loathe him, he set out what he believed in and in politics, that is worth celebrating, especially in light of the feather-weights we have at the moment.

Not my cup of tea on a variety of levels but still kudos for believing in something and acting accordingly. Aint much of it about anymore.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

PalazioVecchio south pole 27 Dec 23 11.04pm
fellas who envisioned a united Europe, under one flag or ideology. Julius Caesar Justinian of Byzantium Charlemagne Pope Innocent III Napoleon kaiser Wilhelm Hitler Stalin Jaque Delors .......and all of them failed. Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

PalazioVecchio

south pole 27 Dec 23 11.04pm

fellas who envisioned a united Europe, under one flag or ideology.

Julius Caesar
Justinian of Byzantium
Charlemagne

Pope Innocent III

Napoleon
kaiser Wilhelm

Hitler
Stalin
Jaque Delors

.......and all of them failed.

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 27 Dec 23 11.05pm
Originally posted by Matov [Link] A man with a vision and who strove to achieve it. Love him or loathe him, he set out what he believed in and in politics, that is worth celebrating, especially in light of the feather-weights we have at the moment. Not my cup of tea on a variety of levels but still kudos for believing in something and acting accordingly. Aint much of it about anymore. Credit is due to you too for the tone and humility of your tribute. Well done. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 27 Dec 23 11.05pm

Originally posted by Matov

[Link]

Not my cup of tea on a variety of levels but still kudos for believing in something and acting accordingly. Aint much of it about anymore.

Credit is due to you too for the tone and humility of your tribute. Well done.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

cryrst The garden of England 28 Dec 23 7.32am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Credit is due to you too for the tone and humility of your tribute. Well done. Sort of blunted your pencil somewhat! and you haven’t mentioned the B word. I’m impressed

cryrst

The garden of England 28 Dec 23 7.32am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Credit is due to you too for the tone and humility of your tribute. Well done.

Sort of blunted your pencil somewhat! and you haven’t mentioned the B word.
I’m impressed

The Dolphin 28 Dec 23 7.39am
I agree Matov. A politician who is prepared to stand by their real beliefs and try to make things happen based on those beliefs is someone to be admired, regardless of anything else. If either Starmer or Sunak had an ounce of what he had we might be in a better place.

The Dolphin

28 Dec 23 7.39am

I agree Matov.
A politician who is prepared to stand by their real beliefs and try to make things happen based on those beliefs is someone to be admired, regardless of anything else.
If either Starmer or Sunak had an ounce of what he had we might be in a better place.

steeleye20 Croydon 28 Dec 23 10.32am
Its adieu not au revoir. The modern EU is not 'the house that Jacques built' it has evolved since his time but he was an architect. An Attlee type of figure, socialist with an eye for detail and getting things done, he is credited with such complex technical challenges as the euro and the single market. Visionary and with the ability to deliver. RIP Edited by steeleye20 (28 Dec 2023 10.33am)

steeleye20

Croydon 28 Dec 23 10.32am

Its adieu not au revoir.

The modern EU is not 'the house that Jacques built' it has evolved since his time but he was an architect.

An Attlee type of figure, socialist with an eye for detail and getting things done, he is credited with such complex technical challenges as the euro and the single market.

Visionary and with the ability to deliver.

RIP

Edited by steeleye20 (28 Dec 2023 10.33am)

ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 28 Dec 23 11.30am
It was mainly about free money for French farmers and still is. France is not a viable economy without the EU and Germany has no political allies without the EU. Unless you count its eastern vassal states. People had visions of an EU because they remembered the wars in Europe. If anyone's afraid of German invasion now then fair enough. The EU posturing over Ukraine - without the military to back it up - is actually making the world more dangerous now. I doubt Jacque Delors would have welcomed the current EU, although maybe he would if he had a sweet job in it. Red and Blue Army!

ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 28 Dec 23 11.30am

It was mainly about free money for French farmers and still is. France is not a viable economy without the EU and Germany has no political allies without the EU. Unless you count its eastern vassal states.
People had visions of an EU because they remembered the wars in Europe. If anyone's afraid of German invasion now then fair enough. The EU posturing over Ukraine - without the military to back it up - is actually making the world more dangerous now.
I doubt Jacque Delors would have welcomed the current EU, although maybe he would if he had a sweet job in it.

Red and Blue Army!

Matov 28 Dec 23 1.59pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC It was mainly about free money for French farmers and still is. France is not a viable economy without the EU and Germany has no political allies without the EU. Unless you count its eastern vassal states. People had visions of an EU because they remembered the wars in Europe. If anyone's afraid of German invasion now then fair enough. The EU posturing over Ukraine - without the military to back it up - is actually making the world more dangerous now. I doubt Jacque Delors would have welcomed the current EU, although maybe he would if he had a sweet job in it. The thing about the EU is that as a concept, especially in light of the devestation wrought over the course of WW2, that this idea of Europe pulling together as a single entity had (and might still have) a genuine idealisitic power behind it. I think it is literally impossible for us in the UK, for a variety of reasons both positive and negative, to comprehend the sheer scale of devestation that both WW1 and WW2 bought to Europe as a whole. Entire cities leveled, millions of people displaced, and economies rendered literally non-existent. By May 1945 France and Germany had been to war with each 3 times in a space of less than 100 years with that having dire consequences for both countries. The notion of a European Community/Union (and initially it was a steel agreement designed in such a way to mean Germany could never fully rearm again) was more than just some cozy soc.lib pissing in the wind but an actual concept borne out the deaths of millions. And drove people like Delors. It was the major issue I never got with the Remain camp. They never truly sold the potential of the EU. Now I have my reasons for believing the 'why' behind that but the reality is the notion of a single body stretching from the western most parts of Portugal all the way over to the Urals mountains and down as far south as Scilcily is simply mindboggling. And Delors embodied that. You might disagree with him on all sorts and feel the UK was/is better off out of it but the ideal he was chasing, does have a genuine merit. Which even those who most loudly still protest about our departure from the EU never quite seemed to share "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

28 Dec 23 1.59pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

The thing about the EU is that as a concept, especially in light of the devestation wrought over the course of WW2, that this idea of Europe pulling together as a single entity had (and might still have) a genuine idealisitic power behind it. I think it is literally impossible for us in the UK, for a variety of reasons both positive and negative, to comprehend the sheer scale of devestation that both WW1 and WW2 bought to Europe as a whole.

Entire cities leveled, millions of people displaced, and economies rendered literally non-existent.

By May 1945 France and Germany had been to war with each 3 times in a space of less than 100 years with that having dire consequences for both countries.

The notion of a European Community/Union (and initially it was a steel agreement designed in such a way to mean Germany could never fully rearm again) was more than just some cozy soc.lib pissing in the wind but an actual concept borne out the deaths of millions.

And drove people like Delors.

It was the major issue I never got with the Remain camp. They never truly sold the potential of the EU. Now I have my reasons for believing the 'why' behind that but the reality is the notion of a single body stretching from the western most parts of Portugal all the way over to the Urals mountains and down as far south as Scilcily is simply mindboggling.

And Delors embodied that. You might disagree with him on all sorts and feel the UK was/is better off out of it but the ideal he was chasing, does have a genuine merit. Which even those who most loudly still protest about our departure from the EU never quite seemed to share

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 28 Dec 23 2.23pm
Originally posted by Matov The thing about the EU is that as a concept, especially in light of the devestation wrought over the course of WW2, that this idea of Europe pulling together as a single entity had (and might still have) a genuine idealisitic power behind it. I think it is literally impossible for us in the UK, for a variety of reasons both positive and negative, to comprehend the sheer scale of devestation that both WW1 and WW2 bought to Europe as a whole. Entire cities leveled, millions of people displaced, and economies rendered literally non-existent. By May 1945 France and Germany had been to war with each 3 times in a space of less than 100 years with that having dire consequences for both countries. The notion of a European Community/Union (and initially it was a steel agreement designed in such a way to mean Germany could never fully rearm again) was more than just some cozy soc.lib pissing in the wind but an actual concept borne out the deaths of millions. And drove people like Delors. It was the major issue I never got with the Remain camp. They never truly sold the potential of the EU. Now I have my reasons for believing the 'why' behind that but the reality is the notion of a single body stretching from the western most parts of Portugal all the way over to the Urals mountains and down as far south as Scilcily is simply mindboggling. And Delors embodied that. You might disagree with him on all sorts and feel the UK was/is better off out of it but the ideal he was chasing, does have a genuine merit. Which even those who most loudly still protest about our departure from the EU never quite seemed to share That’s the most hopeful thing I have read here in a long time. If all that’s been missing is the evidence of the benefits then you can be sure they will be served up in abundance when we prepare the ground for a re-entry. Defending the status quo is always a harder sell than offering the golden dawn of an untested new age. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 28 Dec 23 2.23pm

Originally posted by Matov

Entire cities leveled, millions of people displaced, and economies rendered literally non-existent.

By May 1945 France and Germany had been to war with each 3 times in a space of less than 100 years with that having dire consequences for both countries.

And drove people like Delors.

And Delors embodied that. You might disagree with him on all sorts and feel the UK was/is better off out of it but the ideal he was chasing, does have a genuine merit. Which even those who most loudly still protest about our departure from the EU never quite seemed to share

That’s the most hopeful thing I have read here in a long time. If all that’s been missing is the evidence of the benefits then you can be sure they will be served up in abundance when we prepare the ground for a re-entry. Defending the status quo is always a harder sell than offering the golden dawn of an untested new age.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

PalazioVecchio south pole 29 Dec 23 12.59pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 The modern EU is not 'the house that Jacques built' it has evolved since his time but he was an architect. An Attlee type of figure, socialist with an eye for detail and getting things done, he is credited with such complex technical challenges as the euro and the single market. Visionary and with the ability to deliver. Edited by steeleye20 (28 Dec 2023 10.33am) the ability to deliver a trainwreck. A social & economic sh1.tshow. He couldn't deliver a Pizza without it being laced with cyanide. Socialists like Delors have a Europe without anybody having babies. But replacing our population with men from the Third World instead. Watch any French or German movie from the 1970s and marvel at what we lost. Edited by PalazioVecchio (29 Dec 2023 1.31pm) Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

PalazioVecchio

south pole 29 Dec 23 12.59pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

The modern EU is not 'the house that Jacques built' it has evolved since his time but he was an architect.

An Attlee type of figure, socialist with an eye for detail and getting things done, he is credited with such complex technical challenges as the euro and the single market.

Visionary and with the ability to deliver.

Edited by steeleye20 (28 Dec 2023 10.33am)

the ability to deliver a trainwreck. A social & economic sh1.tshow. He couldn't deliver a Pizza without it being laced with cyanide.

Socialists like Delors have a Europe without anybody having babies. But replacing our population with men from the Third World instead.

Watch any French or German movie from the 1970s and marvel at what we lost.

Edited by PalazioVecchio (29 Dec 2023 1.31pm)

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

Matov 29 Dec 23 2.35pm
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio the ability to deliver a trainwreck. A social & economic sh1.tshow. He couldn't deliver a Pizza without it being laced with cyanide. Socialists like Delors have a Europe without anybody having babies. But replacing our population with men from the Third World instead. Watch any French or German movie from the 1970s and marvel at what we lost. Edited by PalazioVecchio (29 Dec 2023 1.31pm) Which is the issue. And why a potentially federal Europe could be the way forward if the native population is ever to flourish again. Multiculutuarlism dilutes the conventional concept of what nationalism means. Meaning that a white Norwegian has far more in common culturally with a white Hungarian than they will have with a non-white person in their own country. And that is actually celebrated by the Left. That is why they cheer the migrants in. Because their increasing presence dilutes the old nationalist narrative. White Europeans need to start embracing that and begin to value their shared collective values and identity. For the first time, starting to now edge towards perhaps at least considering a rejoin position based around this concept. What we understand as what it means to be British or Irish for example is over. But as Europeans, then potentially a very different story. A greater valuing of our shared European identity might be the saving grace because here in the UK, the very instituions which are meant to define who we are, are the most cucked. For example, our own King makes a great show of proclaiming himself as the defender of ALL faiths. That is not his role and yet he proclaims it. Our military is amongst the most ludicrously woke institutions in the country. Not even truly sure what it means to be British anymore. And our police force will arrest you for refusing to accept that a bloke dressed up in a frock is in fact a woman. Maybe it is time to admit that the game is up, at least on this front? With perhaps the only potential way of saving something is to embrace our shared, and undeniably genetic-based, identity as European, no matter how bitter a pill that is to swallow? Here in the UK we have a Conservative Party who have over-seen mass imigration, refusing to protect our coast-line and who have promoted every kind of attack on the traditional family unit. Nope. Time for some big thinking. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

29 Dec 23 2.35pm

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

the ability to deliver a trainwreck. A social & economic sh1.tshow. He couldn't deliver a Pizza without it being laced with cyanide.

Socialists like Delors have a Europe without anybody having babies. But replacing our population with men from the Third World instead.

Watch any French or German movie from the 1970s and marvel at what we lost.

Edited by PalazioVecchio (29 Dec 2023 1.31pm)

Which is the issue.

And why a potentially federal Europe could be the way forward if the native population is ever to flourish again.

Multiculutuarlism dilutes the conventional concept of what nationalism means. Meaning that a white Norwegian has far more in common culturally with a white Hungarian than they will have with a non-white person in their own country.

And that is actually celebrated by the Left. That is why they cheer the migrants in. Because their increasing presence dilutes the old nationalist narrative.

White Europeans need to start embracing that and begin to value their shared collective values and identity.

For the first time, starting to now edge towards perhaps at least considering a rejoin position based around this concept. What we understand as what it means to be British or Irish for example is over. But as Europeans, then potentially a very different story.

A greater valuing of our shared European identity might be the saving grace because here in the UK, the very instituions which are meant to define who we are, are the most cucked. For example, our own King makes a great show of proclaiming himself as the defender of ALL faiths.

That is not his role and yet he proclaims it. Our military is amongst the most ludicrously woke institutions in the country. Not even truly sure what it means to be British anymore. And our police force will arrest you for refusing to accept that a bloke dressed up in a frock is in fact a woman.

Maybe it is time to admit that the game is up, at least on this front? With perhaps the only potential way of saving something is to embrace our shared, and undeniably genetic-based, identity as European, no matter how bitter a pill that is to swallow?

Here in the UK we have a Conservative Party who have over-seen mass imigration, refusing to protect our coast-line and who have promoted every kind of attack on the traditional family unit.

Nope. Time for some big thinking.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

steeleye20 Croydon 29 Dec 23 4.36pm
It's Sunday morning, bright and clear Lovely flowers decorate a marvelous square Remainers cry and walk away And think about the fateful day Now they wish they'd given Jack Delors More affection and respect The brexiteers dressed in black Toss their euros into an empty pit What's happened to old Jack and their single market. [Chorus] Grocer Jack, Grocer Jack Is it true, what mummy says? You won't come back? Oh no, no Grocer Jack, Grocer Jack Please come back grocer Jack and make our EU town safe again.

steeleye20

Croydon 29 Dec 23 4.36pm

It's Sunday morning, bright and clear
Lovely flowers decorate a marvelous square
Remainers cry and walk away
And think about the fateful day
Now they wish they'd given Jack Delors
More affection and respect
The brexiteers dressed in black
Toss their euros into an empty pit
What's happened to old Jack and their single market.

[Chorus]
Grocer Jack, Grocer Jack
Is it true, what mummy says?
You won't come back? Oh no, no
Grocer Jack, Grocer Jack

Please come back grocer Jack and make our EU town safe again.

Matov 29 Dec 23 4.43pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 It's Sunday morning, bright and clear Lovely flowers decorate a marvelous square Remainers cry and walk away And think about the fateful day Now they wish they'd given Jack Delors More affection and respect The brexiteers dressed in black Toss their euros into an empty pit What's happened to old Jack and their single market. [Chorus] Grocer Jack, Grocer Jack Is it true, what mummy says? You won't come back? Oh no, no Grocer Jack, Grocer Jack Please come back grocer Jack and make our EU town safe again. LOL. However, I now am starting to believe that Europe has to be the battleground for those of us on the Far/Dissident Right. The Left now effectively dominates the nation-state in their control of the instituions so we have lost that and can only be weakened if we continue to play the same game. Need to change the rules and look at new battlefields. And study how the Spanish managed to take back their lands from Moorish invaders. Plenty of inspiration out there if we look hard enough. Along with also legacy. People might be a little surprised if they found out the first major British politician to promote a United Europe. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

29 Dec 23 4.43pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

[Chorus]
Grocer Jack, Grocer Jack
Is it true, what mummy says?
You won't come back? Oh no, no
Grocer Jack, Grocer Jack

Please come back grocer Jack and make our EU town safe again.

LOL.

However, I now am starting to believe that Europe has to be the battleground for those of us on the Far/Dissident Right. The Left now effectively dominates the nation-state in their control of the instituions so we have lost that and can only be weakened if we continue to play the same game.

Need to change the rules and look at new battlefields. And study how the Spanish managed to take back their lands from Moorish invaders. Plenty of inspiration out there if we look hard enough. Along with also legacy. People might be a little surprised if they found out the first major British politician to promote a United Europe.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Hrolf The Ganger 29 Dec 23 7.05pm
Originally posted by Matov Which is the issue. And why a potentially federal Europe could be the way forward if the native population is ever to flourish again. Multiculutuarlism dilutes the conventional concept of what nationalism means. Meaning that a white Norwegian has far more in common culturally with a white Hungarian than they will have with a non-white person in their own country. And that is actually celebrated by the Left. That is why they cheer the migrants in. Because their increasing presence dilutes the old nationalist narrative. White Europeans need to start embracing that and begin to value their shared collective values and identity. For the first time, starting to now edge towards perhaps at least considering a rejoin position based around this concept. What we understand as what it means to be British or Irish for example is over. But as Europeans, then potentially a very different story. A greater valuing of our shared European identity might be the saving grace because here in the UK, the very instituions which are meant to define who we are, are the most cucked. For example, our own King makes a great show of proclaiming himself as the defender of ALL faiths. That is not his role and yet he proclaims it. Our military is amongst the most ludicrously woke institutions in the country. Not even truly sure what it means to be British anymore. And our police force will arrest you for refusing to accept that a bloke dressed up in a frock is in fact a woman. Maybe it is time to admit that the game is up, at least on this front? With perhaps the only potential way of saving something is to embrace our shared, and undeniably genetic-based, identity as European, no matter how bitter a pill that is to swallow? Here in the UK we have a Conservative Party who have over-seen mass imigration, refusing to protect our coast-line and who have promoted every kind of attack on the traditional family unit. Nope. Time for some big thinking. Why? Our decline to disaster occurred mostly while we were in Europe. France and Germany are worse than Britain in terms of immigrant unrest. Our institutions have been infiltrated by the Liberal Left. The traditional Left and the Right share certain principles which chime with the White population. Our politicians have never been more out of touch with the majority of people they are elected to represent. They baulk at the traditional family, have lost control of immigration and have created an economy where people cannot afford to have enough children or have enough time to raise them properly. Rejoining Europe would just make it easier for unelected globalists to put the final nails in the coffin of British life as we knew it. Only a radical change in our domestic politics can alter our path to disaster. The current Tories and modern Left no longer represent us.

Hrolf The Ganger

29 Dec 23 7.05pm

Originally posted by Matov

Which is the issue.

And why a potentially federal Europe could be the way forward if the native population is ever to flourish again.

And that is actually celebrated by the Left. That is why they cheer the migrants in. Because their increasing presence dilutes the old nationalist narrative.

White Europeans need to start embracing that and begin to value their shared collective values and identity.

For the first time, starting to now edge towards perhaps at least considering a rejoin position based around this concept. What we understand as what it means to be British or Irish for example is over. But as Europeans, then potentially a very different story.

Here in the UK we have a Conservative Party who have over-seen mass imigration, refusing to protect our coast-line and who have promoted every kind of attack on the traditional family unit.

Nope. Time for some big thinking.

Why?

Our decline to disaster occurred mostly while we were in Europe. France and Germany are worse than Britain in terms of immigrant unrest.

Our institutions have been infiltrated by the Liberal Left. The traditional Left and the Right share certain principles which chime with the White population. Our politicians have never been more out of touch with the majority of people they are elected to represent. They baulk at the traditional family, have lost control of immigration and have created an economy where people
cannot afford to have enough children or have enough time to raise them properly.

Rejoining Europe would just make it easier for unelected globalists to put the final nails in the coffin of British life as we knew it. Only a radical change in our domestic politics can alter our path to disaster. The current Tories and modern Left no longer represent us.

PalazioVecchio south pole 29 Dec 23 7.19pm
Jacques Delors has created a Europe of the fertile unemployed & the infertile working people. you can be money-poor or future-bloodline poor. Choose one. Or if you really get shafted, you get both. Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

PalazioVecchio

south pole 29 Dec 23 7.19pm

Jacques Delors has created a Europe of the fertile unemployed & the infertile working people.

you can be money-poor or future-bloodline poor. Choose one. Or if you really get shafted, you get both.

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

Matov 29 Dec 23 8.53pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Why? Because...I just cannot see a future based around the current political set up. And at least in Europe you are seeing Right-Wingers at least being in with a shot of taking power, even if say in the case of Italy it does not work out how you expect it to. Institutionally the UK is effectively screwed for those of us on the Right. Even if we managed to get somebody into power, the entire apparatus would turn against them. There is no conventional electoral route to success. Now is there anymore chance of that in Europe? Potentially. And given how the EU is structured, if you can get commissioners into place then you can at least have a go at changing the outlook. Not fully convinced of my position at the moment, and would still love a viable UK to exist but as things stand...I just cannot see how it can happen. Sometimes a completely new paradigm is needed but all I see is a UK literally in the pocket of the US State Department with both Sunak and Starmer bought and sold a long time ago. The West has to reinvent itself because in its current form it is finished. And it is possible that this reinvention requires a federalist European outlook. Wish I could point you to a specifc blue-print for this or offer up at least a semblence of a way forward for it (and suspect it will only truly emerge once I am long gone) BUT perhaps the initial thinking requires us to be back into the EU so that at least we are in the mix. Now I am convinced that by hook or by crook we will be going back into anyway within the next 5 years so it might be forced upon us anyway but sometimes you have to use a situation to your advantage and with the trend in Europe towards the Right, then who knows? Reaching out to our brothers in Europe and working towards a common goal might give us at least something to build upon but as matters stand? We have had a Tory Government for the last 13 years. In 2019 they secured a massive majority. And did SFA with it beyond make the situation worse. Time for a rethink. Because a Europe from the tip of Scotland to the Ural Mountains literally contains everything a civilisation needs. The entire package. I refuse to believe in the UK now as anything more than a US satellite state and probably the situation since the end of WW2. A federal Europe at least offers a vision. Edited by Matov (29 Dec 2023 8.57pm) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

29 Dec 23 8.53pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Why?

Because...I just cannot see a future based around the current political set up. And at least in Europe you are seeing Right-Wingers at least being in with a shot of taking power, even if say in the case of Italy it does not work out how you expect it to.

Institutionally the UK is effectively screwed for those of us on the Right. Even if we managed to get somebody into power, the entire apparatus would turn against them. There is no conventional electoral route to success.

Now is there anymore chance of that in Europe? Potentially. And given how the EU is structured, if you can get commissioners into place then you can at least have a go at changing the outlook.

Not fully convinced of my position at the moment, and would still love a viable UK to exist but as things stand...I just cannot see how it can happen.

Sometimes a completely new paradigm is needed but all I see is a UK literally in the pocket of the US State Department with both Sunak and Starmer bought and sold a long time ago.

The West has to reinvent itself because in its current form it is finished. And it is possible that this reinvention requires a federalist European outlook.

Wish I could point you to a specifc blue-print for this or offer up at least a semblence of a way forward for it (and suspect it will only truly emerge once I am long gone) BUT perhaps the initial thinking requires us to be back into the EU so that at least we are in the mix.

Now I am convinced that by hook or by crook we will be going back into anyway within the next 5 years so it might be forced upon us anyway but sometimes you have to use a situation to your advantage and with the trend in Europe towards the Right, then who knows? Reaching out to our brothers in Europe and working towards a common goal might give us at least something to build upon but as matters stand?

We have had a Tory Government for the last 13 years. In 2019 they secured a massive majority. And did SFA with it beyond make the situation worse.

Time for a rethink.

Because a Europe from the tip of Scotland to the Ural Mountains literally contains everything a civilisation needs. The entire package.

I refuse to believe in the UK now as anything more than a US satellite state and probably the situation since the end of WW2. A federal Europe at least offers a vision.

Edited by Matov (29 Dec 2023 8.57pm)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Hrolf The Ganger 29 Dec 23 9.13pm
Originally posted by Matov Because...I just cannot see a future based around the current political set up. And at least in Europe you are seeing Right-Wingers at least being in with a shot of taking power, even if say in the case of Italy it does not work out how you expect it to. Institutionally the UK is effectively screwed for those of us on the Right. Even if we managed to get somebody into power, the entire apparatus would turn against them. There is no conventional electoral route to success. Now is there anymore chance of that in Europe? Potentially. And given how the EU is structured, if you can get commissioners into place then you can at least have a go at changing the outlook. Not fully convinced of my position at the moment, and would still love a viable UK to exist but as things stand...I just cannot see how it can happen. Sometimes a completely new paradigm is needed but all I see is a UK literally in the pocket of the US State Department with both Sunak and Starmer bought and sold a long time ago. The West has to reinvent itself because in its current form it is finished. And it is possible that this reinvention requires a federalist European outlook. Wish I could point you to a specifc blue-print for this or offer up at least a semblence of a way forward for it (and suspect it will only truly emerge once I am long gone) BUT perhaps the initial thinking requires us to be back into the EU so that at least we are in the mix. Now I am convinced that by hook or by crook we will be going back into anyway within the next 5 years so it might be forced upon us anyway but sometimes you have to use a situation to your advantage and with the trend in Europe towards the Right, then who knows? Reaching out to our brothers in Europe and working towards a common goal might give us at least something to build upon but as matters stand? We have had a Tory Government for the last 13 years. In 2019 they secured a massive majority. And did SFA with it beyond make the situation worse. Time for a rethink. Because a Europe from the tip of Scotland to the Ural Mountains literally contains everything a civilisation needs. The entire package. I refuse to believe in the UK now as anything more than a US satellite state and probably the situation since the end of WW2. A federal Europe at least offers a vision. Edited by Matov (29 Dec 2023 8.57pm) I don't see how 'the people' can change anything in a Europe controlled by unelected puppets. Outside of insurrection, the ballot box is the only way. Europe is slowly waking up to reality. Both traditional Left and Right are finding common ground regarding the circumstances we find ourselves in. The fight has to be based on a common objective among Europeans that transcends national borders or federalism.

Hrolf The Ganger

29 Dec 23 9.13pm

Originally posted by Matov

Now is there anymore chance of that in Europe? Potentially. And given how the EU is structured, if you can get commissioners into place then you can at least have a go at changing the outlook.

Not fully convinced of my position at the moment, and would still love a viable UK to exist but as things stand...I just cannot see how it can happen.

Sometimes a completely new paradigm is needed but all I see is a UK literally in the pocket of the US State Department with both Sunak and Starmer bought and sold a long time ago.

The West has to reinvent itself because in its current form it is finished. And it is possible that this reinvention requires a federalist European outlook.

We have had a Tory Government for the last 13 years. In 2019 they secured a massive majority. And did SFA with it beyond make the situation worse.

Time for a rethink.

Because a Europe from the tip of Scotland to the Ural Mountains literally contains everything a civilisation needs. The entire package.

I refuse to believe in the UK now as anything more than a US satellite state and probably the situation since the end of WW2. A federal Europe at least offers a vision.

Edited by Matov (29 Dec 2023 8.57pm)

I don't see how 'the people' can change anything in a Europe controlled by unelected puppets.
Outside of insurrection, the ballot box is the only way.
Europe is slowly waking up to reality. Both traditional Left and Right are finding common ground regarding the circumstances we find ourselves in.
The fight has to be based on a common objective among Europeans that transcends national borders or federalism.

Matov 29 Dec 23 9.26pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger The fight has to be based on a common objective among Europeans that transcends national borders or federalism. On that I fully agree but if it is not to be national borders then a form of federalism is the only option. Definitely in the sounding out my own POV on this and may well swing away from it but trying to shake myself free of just thinking in terms of the conventional nation-state narrative. That is over and probably has been now for the best part of 20 years. Adapt or die is my current mindset on this. We all just wrap ourselves in national flags and we get eaten alive. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

29 Dec 23 9.26pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

The fight has to be based on a common objective among Europeans that transcends national borders or federalism.

On that I fully agree but if it is not to be national borders then a form of federalism is the only option.

Definitely in the sounding out my own POV on this and may well swing away from it but trying to shake myself free of just thinking in terms of the conventional nation-state narrative. That is over and probably has been now for the best part of 20 years.

Adapt or die is my current mindset on this. We all just wrap ourselves in national flags and we get eaten alive.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

PalazioVecchio south pole 29 Dec 23 10.45pm
Political life is often on a Pendulum. A bit like fashion & music, the younger generation seeks to rebel from their predecessors. Sometimes it only takes the blink of an eye, for a big change.....the Rise of Hitler after the 1929 Wall street crash. Other times, the discontent simmers for centuries.....the French Revolution. I am fairly confident that Eurosceptics will soon have more votes & clout than ardent EU supporters. Across the whole continent. Brexit, Geert Wilders, Italy with Georgia Meloni, Marine Le Pen in France, AfD in Germany .....soon the whole EU representative infrastructure will be riddled with EuroSceptics. And ditto for national parliaments. i envision Turkey joining the Eu just around the time that the EU falls apart. Edited by PalazioVecchio (29 Dec 2023 10.55pm) Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

PalazioVecchio

south pole 29 Dec 23 10.45pm

Political life is often on a Pendulum. A bit like fashion & music, the younger generation seeks to rebel from their predecessors.

Sometimes it only takes the blink of an eye, for a big change.....the Rise of Hitler after the 1929 Wall street crash. Other times, the discontent simmers for centuries.....the French Revolution.

I am fairly confident that Eurosceptics will soon have more votes & clout than ardent EU supporters. Across the whole continent.

Brexit, Geert Wilders, Italy with Georgia Meloni, Marine Le Pen in France, AfD in Germany .....soon the whole EU representative infrastructure will be riddled with EuroSceptics. And ditto for national parliaments.

i envision Turkey joining the Eu just around the time that the EU falls apart.

Edited by PalazioVecchio (29 Dec 2023 10.55pm)

Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

Hrolf The Ganger 29 Dec 23 11.56pm
Originally posted by Matov On that I fully agree but if it is not to be national borders then a form of federalism is the only option. Definitely in the sounding out my own POV on this and may well swing away from it but trying to shake myself free of just thinking in terms of the conventional nation-state narrative. That is over and probably has been now for the best part of 20 years. Adapt or die is my current mindset on this. We all just wrap ourselves in national flags and we get eaten alive. I don’t think nationalism is a factor for most people. It is about the erosion of European culture and society. Flag waving might be an easy expression but that along with the failed two party system must be left behind in order to fight for our future. There must be an all out effort to conquer hearts and minds and achieve political and institutional representation while there are still enough of us. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Dec 2023 12.01am)

Hrolf The Ganger

29 Dec 23 11.56pm

Originally posted by Matov

On that I fully agree but if it is not to be national borders then a form of federalism is the only option.

Adapt or die is my current mindset on this. We all just wrap ourselves in national flags and we get eaten alive.

I don’t think nationalism is a factor for most people. It is about the erosion of European culture and society. Flag waving might be an easy expression but that along with the failed two party system must be left behind in order to fight for our future. There must be an all out effort to conquer hearts and minds and achieve political and institutional representation while there are still enough of us.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Dec 2023 12.01am)

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