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The ol' 4-3-3

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Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 21 Apr 22 9.52am Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

I've been pondering this for some time now.

I think it a great system, I have loved it and for us I think it's allowed the world to see the best of Sir Wilfried down the years.

However, in today's game, to what extent are you best able to utilise it when you have limited funds, or even unlimited to a certain extent? The only two players I have seen really flourish in that starting striker position in the PL are D.Costa and Harold Kane (I'll await the world and it's mother naming 100 more).

I think it's a really tough role to play in a team. That's not to excuse Bentekkers, or anyone else, from poor showings however any player who can effectively and consistently hold up the ball, bring others into play, link up play and bag 20+ a season is surely not going to ply their trade at the Palace... for long anyways?

I'd feel somewhat confident if for whatever reason we ended up with one of Firmino, Jesus, Werner, Cavani etc. next season, come this time we'd all be griping about their 'not meeting expectations'. We now also see the 'European Super League' clubs more often then not just sticking another winger in there, such as Foden, Sterling, Salah, Mane, Rashford so on and so forth.

The dream still is we'll uncover the next Benzema this summer, find a left winger who I'd imagine will eventually ease Wilf out of the team and with Olise and Eze stepping up we'll have the ultimate attacking force... but that is only a dream.

Is the 4-3-3 still the best way to go? Could we still use it but with a strategy other than 2 wingers, 1 lump up front? They are only musings from me as I'm not convinced I am right on this so be grateful for other opinions! COYP.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 21 Apr 22 11.17am Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

If Brighty didn’t advise to sell Murray and Pardew couldn’t wait to flog him we would’ve had a perfectly good lone striker for quite a while. We wouldn’t have bought Benteke or all the other sh1t loaned in or bought on the cheap because all the Benteke eggs in one basket smashed after injury/Hodgson not utilising Benteke properly. He still missed chances he should’ve scored but he wasn’t suited to little involvement while needing to score after a few touches over the course of 85 minutes. We could’ve replaced like for like by preparing for it. I think Parish has learned from this kind of mistake.

 


COYP

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 21 Apr 22 11.56am Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

It's an interesting observation, but I think we just need shift how the striker is judged in this type of system.. you're right we're not going to find someone who can do the hard bits while also coming up with 20+ goals, but in theory this system allows us to get our most dangerous players (Wilf + Olise) receiving the ball in better areas.

Liverpool are the best example; say before Jota & Diaz came along, Firmino played every game and struggled to score 15 a season, but Salah & Mane were able to contribute north of 20 goals each from the wide positions by virtue of being higher up the pitch.

Not for one minute suggesting we're going to get 60 odd goals out of Wilf and Olise, but in theory it's about getting our most dangerous players into dangerous positions as often as we can.

 

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palace99 Flag New Mills 21 Apr 22 3.01pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

If Brighty didn’t advise to sell Murray and Pardew couldn’t wait to flog him we would’ve had a perfectly good lone striker for quite a while. We wouldn’t have bought Benteke or all the other sh1t loaned in or bought on the cheap because all the Benteke eggs in one basket smashed after injury/Hodgson not utilising Benteke properly. He still missed chances he should’ve scored but he wasn’t suited to little involvement while needing to score after a few touches over the course of 85 minutes. We could’ve replaced like for like by preparing for it. I think Parish has learned from this kind of mistake.

i agree Tekkers was an expensive mistake but it was the purchase of Wickham that led to Murray's departure.
Makes Pardew's decision making even more bizarre doesn't it.

 

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Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 21 Apr 22 3.28pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

It's an interesting observation, but I think we just need shift how the striker is judged in this type of system.. you're right we're not going to find someone who can do the hard bits while also coming up with 20+ goals, but in theory this system allows us to get our most dangerous players (Wilf + Olise) receiving the ball in better areas.

Liverpool are the best example; say before Jota & Diaz came along, Firmino played every game and struggled to score 15 a season, but Salah & Mane were able to contribute north of 20 goals each from the wide positions by virtue of being higher up the pitch.

Not for one minute suggesting we're going to get 60 odd goals out of Wilf and Olise, but in theory it's about getting our most dangerous players into dangerous positions as often as we can.

I absolutely agree there.

I do feel as though we have been caught between the 'big man' and the 'finisher' up front recently - buying players that match one of these conditions but then let us down on the other.

I think it would take some genius and slice of luck to find/scout/procure the exact right fit. Also, and I do love him dearly, but can't help but feel the deity like figure of Wilf, on whom we were so dependant, is no longer able to live up to that expectation. Hence pondering if we will see a change in tact?

Olise is very promising and even now good for me however would question whether the whole team and style of play can be built around him? PV seems very much more the 'whole team' kind of manager as opposed to 'make sure we're defensively sound and rely on Wilf or occasionally someone else to conjure something down the other end' and again maybe we will see a change in formation?

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 21 Apr 22 5.04pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

I absolutely agree there.

I do feel as though we have been caught between the 'big man' and the 'finisher' up front recently - buying players that match one of these conditions but then let us down on the other.

I think it would take some genius and slice of luck to find/scout/procure the exact right fit. Also, and I do love him dearly, but can't help but feel the deity like figure of Wilf, on whom we were so dependant, is no longer able to live up to that expectation. Hence pondering if we will see a change in tact?

Olise is very promising and even now good for me however would question whether the whole team and style of play can be built around him? PV seems very much more the 'whole team' kind of manager as opposed to 'make sure we're defensively sound and rely on Wilf or occasionally someone else to conjure something down the other end' and again maybe we will see a change in formation?

I think most teams at our level are in that boat - Dwight Gayle's career is probably a good example of it.. scored goals for fun in the Championship, still a decent goalscorer at Prem level, but not quite prolific enough to justify a place in a starting line-up.

It's also relevant that most teams trying to survive in the Prem can only really get away with playing one striker, so 'luxury' options like Gayle start too look very hard to accommodate.

I think you're being a bit harsh on Wilf - for me, he's still far and away our best finisher and creator and still the person I want to see on the ball as often as possible in the final third. For all his flaws (of which there are plenty), I think some probably still underappreciate quite how good he is for our level.

I have to say I think Olise is talented enough to warrant building a team to make him as effective as possible - with him and Wilf playing on opposite flanks (which I think has only actually happened a handful of times this season, somehow) we have two genuinely dangerous wide men that will cause most defences problems - I think those two are our 'USP' or the stand-out bits of our squad you'd build around... most bottom half teams don't have final third players half as impactful.

 

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EddieMac Flag 22 Apr 22 12.26pm Send a Private Message to EddieMac Add EddieMac as a friend

These days’s there are very few teams who play with 2 out and out strikers. Burnley are probably the only team in the league at the moment. A lot of teams are favouring having 3 attacking front men 4-3-3 but it switches into 4-5-1 when needed.

 

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PatrickA Flag London 22 Apr 22 1.54pm Send a Private Message to PatrickA Add PatrickA as a friend

4-3-3 is very effective if you have 5 outstanding forwards like Liverpool and they are devastating on the counter attack whatever the selection.
They also have two attacking full backs to provide width and excellent service to the forwards.
4-3-3 can also be very effective if you have an outstanding central striker like Drogba who could score goals, lead the line and bully defenders.
We don’t possess such a central striker - not many teams do.
I also doubt we have a goal scoring attacking midfielder amongst our ranks to support a lone central striker.
I know Vieira appears wedded to 4-3-3 and has been from day one, but I wouldn’t be averse to seeing different systems tried so we don’t have a one size fits all approach.
When DeBoer came in he wanted to play 3-4-3 before even knowing whether the squad suited the system - which they didn’t.
However, Conte’s Chelsea team executed 3 at the back brilliantly because his players were perfect for the system with the full backs pushed on like wingers. The nominal right back Moses spent barely any time in his own half.
You want to choose the most effective system to suit the available players, rather than shoeing them into an unsuitable system.
I like Vieira, but would like to see us create more chances and on occasions get the ball into the box quicker before the opposition have a chance to organise.
From my perspective we sometimes overdo the patient build up.
It is interesting that some of our most effective passes are the switches of play or balls behind the full back that Anderson plays.
These disrupt the opposition and can catch them off guard.
In conclusion I don’t mind which system we use as long as it’s efficient, reasonably entertaining and makes good use of the available resources.

 

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General Flag 22 Apr 22 2.12pm Send a Private Message to General Add General as a friend

hi all

what is wrong with Mateta!?

perfectly useful in a 433 i think and for 9million i am very happy

keeps defenders occupied, holds the ball up, scores goals, not afraid to shoot with either foot, tall, relatively powerful, knows how to play with Wilf and Olise, looks like he puts every effort he can into his minutes on the pitch..

cant see us spending 20/30 million anytime soon

 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 25 Apr 22 2.52pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by PatrickA

4-3-3 is very effective if you have 5 outstanding forwards like Liverpool and they are devastating on the counter attack whatever the selection.
They also have two attacking full backs to provide width and excellent service to the forwards.
4-3-3 can also be very effective if you have an outstanding central striker like Drogba who could score goals, lead the line and bully defenders.
We don’t possess such a central striker - not many teams do.
I also doubt we have a goal scoring attacking midfielder amongst our ranks to support a lone central striker.
I know Vieira appears wedded to 4-3-3 and has been from day one, but I wouldn’t be averse to seeing different systems tried so we don’t have a one size fits all approach.
When DeBoer came in he wanted to play 3-4-3 before even knowing whether the squad suited the system - which they didn’t.
However, Conte’s Chelsea team executed 3 at the back brilliantly because his players were perfect for the system with the full backs pushed on like wingers. The nominal right back Moses spent barely any time in his own half.
You want to choose the most effective system to suit the available players, rather than shoeing them into an unsuitable system.
I like Vieira, but would like to see us create more chances and on occasions get the ball into the box quicker before the opposition have a chance to organise.
From my perspective we sometimes overdo the patient build up.
It is interesting that some of our most effective passes are the switches of play or balls behind the full back that Anderson plays.
These disrupt the opposition and can catch them off guard.
In conclusion I don’t mind which system we use as long as it’s efficient, reasonably entertaining and makes good use of the available resources.

I think 4-3-3 is the most effective for our players - any time we've deviated from it this season, it has not gone well.

I'd argue all of Mitchell, Ward, Gallagher, Wilf, Olise and arguably Eze are at their best in a 4-3-3, which is the bulk of our best players.

Edouard is the only one who jumps out to me as a bad fit for our system at the moment.

 

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Spiderman Flag Horsham 25 Apr 22 4.32pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I think 4-3-3 is the most effective for our players - any time we've deviated from it this season, it has not gone well.

I'd argue all of Mitchell, Ward, Gallagher, Wilf, Olise and arguably Eze are at their best in a 4-3-3, which is the bulk of our best players.

Edouard is the only one who jumps out to me as a bad fit for our system at the moment.

Team for tonight?

Guiata, Clyne Andersen Guehi Ward

Gallagher MacArthur Eze

Ayew Mateta Zaha

 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 25 Apr 22 4.58pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

Team for tonight?

Guiata, Clyne Andersen Guehi Ward

Gallagher MacArthur Eze

Ayew Mateta Zaha

I don't know what to expect tonight if I'm honest... if Mitchell is out I've half a feeling we'll end up with Schlupp at wing-back or something similar.

Ayew was woeful against Newcastle, but his work rate quite suits matching up against Leeds.

I get the impression PV wants to give Eze and Edouard opportunities before the end of the season, but both would concern me a touch against a high-intensity side like Leeds.

Macca has absolutely earned himself a start with the performance the other night - expect he'll be in whatever the system.


Guita
Kouyate Anderson Guehi
Clyne Gallagher Macca Eze Schlupp
Edouard Wilf

 

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