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Mapletree Croydon 01 Jul 19 10.32pm
OK. So who mugged da yoof into busting up the Legislative Council building, thereby undermining the peaceful protest of the vast majority and providing an excuse for an extreme reaction? I feel the hand of Malcolm Tucker [Link]
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Mapletree

Croydon 01 Jul 19 10.32pm

OK. So who mugged da yoof into busting up the Legislative Council building, thereby undermining the peaceful protest of the vast majority and providing an excuse for an extreme reaction?

I feel the hand of Malcolm Tucker

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 01 Jul 19 11.16pm
While I obviously support the democracy protesters in Hong Kong.....this really isn't our concern anymore than Tibet is anymore....and what do we hear about Tibet?.....China had far less claim over Tibet than it had over Hong Kong.....Because Hong Kong was always comprised of Chinese. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Jul 19 11.16pm

While I obviously support the democracy protesters in Hong Kong.....this really isn't our concern anymore than Tibet is anymore....and what do we hear about Tibet?.....China had far less claim over Tibet than it had over Hong Kong.....Because Hong Kong was always comprised of Chinese.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Mapletree Croydon 01 Jul 19 11.26pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays While I obviously support the democracy protesters in Hong Kong.....this really isn't our concern anymore than Tibet is anymore....and what do we hear about Tibet?.....China had far less claim over Tibet than it had over Hong Kong.....Because Hong Kong was always comprised of Chinese. I can tell it’s a long time since you were at university. Many Hong Kong students (9,000), few Tibetan. We remain close and feel their pain more than most. But my point is rather more the movement of hidden hands using Telegram. And ensuring the Police did not prevent the protestors breaking in. Deeply fishy.
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Mapletree

Croydon 01 Jul 19 11.26pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I can tell it’s a long time since you were at university. Many Hong Kong students (9,000), few Tibetan. We remain close and feel their pain more than most.

But my point is rather more the movement of hidden hands using Telegram. And ensuring the Police did not prevent the protestors breaking in. Deeply fishy.

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Stirlingsays 02 Jul 19 12.26am
Originally posted by Mapletree I can tell it’s a long time since you were at university. Many Hong Kong students (9,000), few Tibetan. We remain close and feel their pain more than most. But my point is rather more the movement of hidden hands using Telegram. And ensuring the Police did not prevent the protestors breaking in. Deeply fishy. Interesting implicit concession about why you'd feel more concern over one set of people than another. Anyway, whether you know those affected or not....I think comparing what is happening in Hong Kong to what has and is happening in Tibet.....well, lets just say that it's on a completely different level. That said, I do support those protesting in Hong Kong....though they have zero percent chance of maintaining two systems.....China and Hong Kong will be the same by 2047 as the original agreement stated....China are just obviously pushing to implement it more quickly. China aren't democratic and I don't see that changing.....They know that a move to democracy will mean that the country will break up into its regions and hence their power base goes with it. So if it comes to it....Tiananmen Squares will happen again. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Jul 2019 12.29am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

02 Jul 19 12.26am

Originally posted by Mapletree

I can tell it’s a long time since you were at university. Many Hong Kong students (9,000), few Tibetan. We remain close and feel their pain more than most.

But my point is rather more the movement of hidden hands using Telegram. And ensuring the Police did not prevent the protestors breaking in. Deeply fishy.

Interesting implicit concession about why you'd feel more concern over one set of people than another.

Anyway, whether you know those affected or not....I think comparing what is happening in Hong Kong to what has and is happening in Tibet.....well, lets just say that it's on a completely different level.

That said, I do support those protesting in Hong Kong....though they have zero percent chance of maintaining two systems.....China and Hong Kong will be the same by 2047 as the original agreement stated....China are just obviously pushing to implement it more quickly.

China aren't democratic and I don't see that changing.....They know that a move to democracy will mean that the country will break up into its regions and hence their power base goes with it.

So if it comes to it....Tiananmen Squares will happen again.

Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Jul 2019 12.29am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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W12 02 Jul 19 8.48am
I find the fact that ethnic Chinese protesters are flying the British colonial flag interesting when we are constantly told of the endless evils colonialism and white men brought to the world. The British empire in particular seems to have uniquely good relations with most of it's former colonies (including the US). This is possibly due to the fact that it basically returned much of it's territories simply because it was the right thing to do.
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W12 02 Jul 19 8.48am

I find the fact that ethnic Chinese protesters are flying the British colonial flag interesting when we are constantly told of the endless evils colonialism and white men brought to the world.

The British empire in particular seems to have uniquely good relations with most of it's former colonies (including the US). This is possibly due to the fact that it basically returned much of it's territories simply because it was the right thing to do.

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 02 Jul 19 10.06am
Originally posted by W12 I find the fact that ethnic Chinese protesters are flying the British colonial flag interesting when we are constantly told of the endless evils colonialism and white men brought to the world. The British empire in particular seems to have uniquely good relations with most of it's former colonies (including the US). This is possibly due to the fact that it basically returned much of it's territories simply because it was the right thing to do. Not really, there were plenty of independence movements and revolutions. Britain was skint after two world wars and basically all the debt was owned by the USA. They took influence in some of the territories and the others were got rid of as quickly as possible. There were some pointless African countries left and some islands that no-one really wanted and Britain did its best to get rid as it simply couldn't afford them. What is left are a couple of tax havens. The 'fond' memory of the British Empire is that it was largely based on trade rather than conquest. In that way, it was in Britain's interest to improve infrastructure and educate the population. This made British rule look generally benign. What has come after, for plenty of countries, leaves many wishing that there was still The Empire to look after them. Everyone knows that is just a pipe dream but you can always dream. We can't even sort our own streets out, let alone the streets of foreign lands. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 02 Jul 19 10.06am

Originally posted by W12

I find the fact that ethnic Chinese protesters are flying the British colonial flag interesting when we are constantly told of the endless evils colonialism and white men brought to the world.

The 'fond' memory of the British Empire is that it was largely based on trade rather than conquest. In that way, it was in Britain's interest to improve infrastructure and educate the population. This made British rule look generally benign. What has come after, for plenty of countries, leaves many wishing that there was still The Empire to look after them. Everyone knows that is just a pipe dream but you can always dream.

We can't even sort our own streets out, let alone the streets of foreign lands.

Red and Blue Army!

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Stirlingsays 02 Jul 19 10.08am
Originally posted by W12 I find the fact that ethnic Chinese protesters are flying the British colonial flag interesting when we are constantly told of the endless evils colonialism and white men brought to the world. The British empire in particular seems to have uniquely good relations with most of it's former colonies (including the US). This is possibly due to the fact that it basically returned much of it's territories simply because it was the right thing to do. Good points. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

02 Jul 19 10.08am

Originally posted by W12

I find the fact that ethnic Chinese protesters are flying the British colonial flag interesting when we are constantly told of the endless evils colonialism and white men brought to the world.

Good points.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 02 Jul 19 10.28am
Originally posted by ASCPFC Not really, there were plenty of independence movements and revolutions. Britain was skint after two world wars and basically all the debt was owned by the USA. They took influence in some of the territories and the others were got rid of as quickly as possible. There were some pointless African countries left and some islands that no-one really wanted and Britain did its best to get rid as it simply couldn't afford them. What is left are a couple of tax havens. So you are implying that the British only gave Independence because of our financial situation? This was a factor definitely as the empire had considerable cost, however it's not taking into account the lack of will to fight the independence movements and a general tiring of empire. Countries like India were morally hard to deny. Originally posted by ASCPFC The 'fond' memory of the British Empire is that it was largely based on trade rather than conquest. In that way, it was in Britain's interest to improve infrastructure and educate the population. This made British rule look generally benign. What has come after, for plenty of countries, leaves many wishing that there was still The Empire to look after them. Everyone knows that is just a pipe dream but you can always dream. We can't even sort our own streets out, let alone the streets of foreign lands. This point is far easier to rebluff. Thankfully the British wasn't the only empire, European or otherwise and our record stands very favourably in comparison to any other. You say it was in our interests to improve infrastructure and education.....yet you could say that for many of these countries after we left. However, we can see what's happened in many of these countries since.....Mind you there are other contributing factors for that as well. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

02 Jul 19 10.28am

Originally posted by ASCPFC

So you are implying that the British only gave Independence because of our financial situation?

This was a factor definitely as the empire had considerable cost, however it's not taking into account the lack of will to fight the independence movements and a general tiring of empire.

Countries like India were morally hard to deny.

Originally posted by ASCPFC

We can't even sort our own streets out, let alone the streets of foreign lands.

This point is far easier to rebluff.

Thankfully the British wasn't the only empire, European or otherwise and our record stands very favourably in comparison to any other.

You say it was in our interests to improve infrastructure and education.....yet you could say that for many of these countries after we left.

However, we can see what's happened in many of these countries since.....Mind you there are other contributing factors for that as well.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 02 Jul 19 11.08am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays This point is far easier to rebluff. Thankfully the British wasn't the only empire, European or otherwise and our record stands very favourably in comparison to any other. You say it was in our interests to improve infrastructure and education.....yet you could say that for many of these countries after we left. However, we can see what's happened in many of these countries since.....Mind you there are other contributing factors for that as well. I was merely pointing out the main factor - money. The lack of will is largely an excuse for it not being economical. Like India as you state. Too expensive to put down the large scale trouble plus it really wasn't going to wash with the Americans - our bigger brother by then. A bit like the Suez which worked seemlessly but the US vetoed. As for the second point - if you look at our posts again they are largely complimentary - I believe the British Empire largely improved its colonies/ territories. They also used to avoid widespread conflict and slaughter where they could. Britain never maintained the large scale land forces of the French, for example. Although largely the French were not the worst offenders in colonialism - again educating and giving services to most of its overseas territories. The bad offenders were the Spanish originally and the Portuguese and Belgians later, the Germans aren't worth mentioning. As for what came after, my point is that many look back fondly on the old Empire and realise it was largely benign. Of course, I could go into more or less every reason but this forum doesn't really need my new thesis. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 02 Jul 19 11.08am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

This point is far easier to rebluff.

Thankfully the British wasn't the only empire, European or otherwise and our record stands very favourably in comparison to any other.

You say it was in our interests to improve infrastructure and education.....yet you could say that for many of these countries after we left.

However, we can see what's happened in many of these countries since.....Mind you there are other contributing factors for that as well.

I was merely pointing out the main factor - money. The lack of will is largely an excuse for it not being economical. Like India as you state. Too expensive to put down the large scale trouble plus it really wasn't going to wash with the Americans - our bigger brother by then. A bit like the Suez which worked seemlessly but the US vetoed.
As for the second point - if you look at our posts again they are largely complimentary - I believe the British Empire largely improved its colonies/ territories. They also used to avoid widespread conflict and slaughter where they could. Britain never maintained the large scale land forces of the French, for example. Although largely the French were not the worst offenders in colonialism - again educating and giving services to most of its overseas territories. The bad offenders were the Spanish originally and the Portuguese and Belgians later, the Germans aren't worth mentioning.
As for what came after, my point is that many look back fondly on the old Empire and realise it was largely benign.
Of course, I could go into more or less every reason but this forum doesn't really need my new thesis.

Red and Blue Army!

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Stirlingsays 02 Jul 19 12.01pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC I was merely pointing out the main factor - money. The lack of will is largely an excuse for it not being economical. Like India as you state. Too expensive to put down the large scale trouble plus it really wasn't going to wash with the Americans - our bigger brother by then. A bit like the Suez which worked seemlessly but the US vetoed. As for the second point - if you look at our posts again they are largely complimentary - I believe the British Empire largely improved its colonies/ territories. They also used to avoid widespread conflict and slaughter where they could. Britain never maintained the large scale land forces of the French, for example. Although largely the French were not the worst offenders in colonialism - again educating and giving services to most of its overseas territories. The bad offenders were the Spanish originally and the Portuguese and Belgians later, the Germans aren't worth mentioning. As for what came after, my point is that many look back fondly on the old Empire and realise it was largely benign. Of course, I could go into more or less every reason but this forum doesn't really need my new thesis. It's true we are discussing relatively minor points. I would say that northern European countries differ only so much and while our southern European friends are still far closer than some their Moorish input had its influence....possibly. Not so sure about the Belgians in Africa, I've read conflicting takes.....but something pretty bad seems to have gone down in the Congo. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Jul 2019 12.02pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

02 Jul 19 12.01pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

It's true we are discussing relatively minor points.

I would say that northern European countries differ only so much and while our southern European friends are still far closer than some their Moorish input had its influence....possibly.

Not so sure about the Belgians in Africa, I've read conflicting takes.....but something pretty bad seems to have gone down in the Congo.

Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Jul 2019 12.02pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Mapletree Croydon 04 Jul 19 1.39pm
Did you see how the Chinese Ambassador told us to get the hell out of Hong Kong politics and 'focus on Brexit'. That was code for if you want a trade deal with us when you lose the combined strength of the EU you had better toe the line. And, lo and behold, the young twerps that got mugged by invisible online hands into busting up the Legislative Council building have created an avenue for China to decry the millions who have protested. If the invisible actors didn't include many from the State then I am a Chinaman.
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Mapletree

Croydon 04 Jul 19 1.39pm

Did you see how the Chinese Ambassador told us to get the hell out of Hong Kong politics and 'focus on Brexit'.

That was code for if you want a trade deal with us when you lose the combined strength of the EU you had better toe the line.

And, lo and behold, the young twerps that got mugged by invisible online hands into busting up the Legislative Council building have created an avenue for China to decry the millions who have protested.

If the invisible actors didn't include many from the State then I am a Chinaman.

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eagleman13 On The Road To Hell & Alicante 04 Jul 19 3.10pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC Not really, there were plenty of independence movements and revolutions. Britain was skint after two world wars and basically all the debt was owned by the USA. They took influence in some of the territories and the others were got rid of as quickly as possible. There were some pointless African countries left and some islands that no-one really wanted and Britain did its best to get rid as it simply couldn't afford them. What is left are a couple of tax havens. The 'fond' memory of the British Empire is that it was largely based on trade rather than conquest. In that way, it was in Britain's interest to improve infrastructure and educate the population. This made British rule look generally benign. What has come after, for plenty of countries, leaves many wishing that there was still The Empire to look after them. Everyone knows that is just a pipe dream but you can always dream. We can't even sort our own streets out, let alone the streets of foreign lands. The bit in red . . . As i was born & initially raised in BERMUDA, i take exception to your post. Does IRELAND(your flag) also come under what you have described? It too, was British at one time. Just asking. This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.
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eagleman13

On The Road To Hell & Alicante 04 Jul 19 3.10pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

Not really, there were plenty of independence movements and revolutions. Britain was skint after two world wars and basically all the debt was owned by the USA. They took influence in some of the territories and the others were got rid of as quickly as possible. There were some pointless African countries left and some islands that no-one really wanted and Britain did its best to get rid as it simply couldn't afford them. What is left are a couple of tax havens.

The 'fond' memory of the British Empire is that it was largely based on trade rather than conquest. In that way, it was in Britain's interest to improve infrastructure and educate the population. This made British rule look generally benign. What has come after, for plenty of countries, leaves many wishing that there was still The Empire to look after them. Everyone knows that is just a pipe dream but you can always dream.

We can't even sort our own streets out, let alone the streets of foreign lands.

The bit in red . . .

As i was born & initially raised in BERMUDA, i take exception to your post. Does IRELAND(your flag) also come under what you have described? It too, was British at one time.

Just asking.

This operation, will make the 'Charge Of The Light Brigade' seem like a simple military exercise.

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