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hedgehog50 Croydon 08 Nov 17 8.54am | |
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It is the 100th anniversary of the communists seizing power in Russia.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Stirlingsays 08 Nov 17 9.14am | |
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It's interesting how favourably Lenin is seen.....that guy murdered masses....signed death warrant after warrant. 1918 till he died in 23....covered in blood. Lenin started the Gulags...Butchered he Cossacks..the Tambov Rebellion. Some revolution.....meet the new boss....he's the same as the old boss.....Well, actually that's not true...he murdered you and your family if you looked the wrong way or owned anything.....So he was orders of magnitude worse. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Nov 2017 9.14am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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steeleye20 Croydon 08 Nov 17 9.30am | |
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We simply don't understand in the west that Russia was a mediaeval society its people bonded slaves. The Russian people never got the freedom and justice they deserved but at least they made a good stab at it and overthrew centuries of slavery. 'Ten days that shook the world' is the most compelling event of the last century IMO.
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Badger11 Beckenham 08 Nov 17 9.39am | |
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The Tsar who was an absolute ruler was overthrown by a coalition of democratic parties. Sadly the left wing democratic government was in turn overthrown by the Bolsheviks. After 100 years has anything changed? Russia still has a "strong man" in charge and democracy is pretty flaky.
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hedgehog50 Croydon 08 Nov 17 9.48am | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
We simply don't understand in the west that Russia was a mediaeval society its people bonded slaves. The Russian people never got the freedom and justice they deserved but at least they made a good stab at it and overthrew centuries of slavery. 'Ten days that shook the world' is the most compelling event of the last century IMO. Slavery? How about this on slave ships from Conquest's 'Kolyma: The Arctic Death Camps': "In that immense, cavernous, murky hold were crammed more than 2000 women. From the floor to the ceiling, as in a gigantic poultry farm, they were cooped up in open cages, five of them in each nine-foot-square space. The floor was covered with more women. Because of the heat and humidity, most of them were only scantily dressed;some had even stripped down to nothing. The lack of washing facilities and the relentless heat had covered their bodies with ugly red spots, boils, and blisters. The majority were suffering from some form of skin disease or other, apart from stomach ailments and dysentery. Edited by hedgehog50 (08 Nov 2017 9.50am)
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Stirlingsays 08 Nov 17 10.01am | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
We simply don't understand in the west that Russia was a mediaeval society its people bonded slaves. The Russian people never got the freedom and justice they deserved but at least they made a good stab at it and overthrew centuries of slavery. 'Ten days that shook the world' is the most compelling event of the last century IMO. The were responsible for far far more deaths than Hitler..tens of millions dead....many of them their own people.....they starved the Ukrainians and distributed posters telling them that eating their own children was bad. 'They made a good stab at it' is a funny way of looking at this......I'm not seeing how 'overthrew centuries of slavery' just to butcher them instead was an improvement. Of course most of us know about the serf system, we aren't in sixth form history. The first world war saw the autocratic rule coming to a close anyway. Elections were happening.....the communists ended all that. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Nov 2017 10.07am)
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jamiemartin721 Reading 09 Nov 17 11.05am | |
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The fiasco of the Russian military in the first world war probably did more to engender the end of Tsarist Russia and pave the way to the revolution than anything else. The crimes of the civil war (between the reds and the whites were brutal, on both sides - but what followed the success of the Bolshevik side, remains among the worst crimes against humanity. The moment that the Bolsheviks moved against a democratically elected government, by force of arms, was the point at which it lost all validity as a force of the people, being those who would use force on the people. The crimes committed by Lenin, Trotsky and ultimately Stalin are of course unforgivable. Any state that kills its own people as a means of control is despotic and deserves to be remembered as such.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Stirlingsays 09 Nov 17 11.15am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
The fiasco of the Russian military in the first world war probably did more to engender the end of Tsarist Russia and pave the way to the revolution than anything else. The crimes of the civil war (between the reds and the whites were brutal, on both sides - but what followed the success of the Bolshevik side, remains among the worst crimes against humanity. The moment that the Bolsheviks moved against a democratically elected government, by force of arms, was the point at which it lost all validity as a force of the people, being those who would use force on the people. The crimes committed by Lenin, Trotsky and ultimately Stalin are of course unforgivable. Any state that kills its own people as a means of control is despotic and deserves to be remembered as such. We should start some kind of 'terrible regimes' thread series. I wonder who is next after the soviets for body count.....Mao or Hitler.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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hedgehog50 Croydon 09 Nov 17 11.21am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
The fiasco of the Russian military in the first world war probably did more to engender the end of Tsarist Russia and pave the way to the revolution than anything else. The crimes of the civil war (between the reds and the whites were brutal, on both sides - but what followed the success of the Bolshevik side, remains among the worst crimes against humanity. The moment that the Bolsheviks moved against a democratically elected government, by force of arms, was the point at which it lost all validity as a force of the people, being those who would use force on the people. The crimes committed by Lenin, Trotsky and ultimately Stalin are of course unforgivable. Any state that kills its own people as a means of control is despotic and deserves to be remembered as such. What you say is correct. But we should also remember that they implemented marxist ideas on running their economy, the abolition of capitalism and the state running industries and services, collective farms etc, resulting in catastrophes like the famines and general shortages and low quality products, low standard of living.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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hedgehog50 Croydon 09 Nov 17 11.23am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
We should start some kind of 'terrible regimes' thread series. I wonder who is next after the soviets for body count.....Mao or Hitler. Mao Tse-Tung beats the USSR and Nazi Germany put together. Note that China today still honours that mass murderer.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Park Road 09 Nov 17 11.24am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
We should start some kind of 'terrible regimes' thread series. I wonder who is next after the soviets for body count.....Mao or Hitler. Genghis Khan was a conqueror by force. The wars led in his name killed some 40 million people (about 10% of the world’s population at the time)! But, as a new study showed, these bloody conquests helped the environment – removing nearly 700 million tons of carbon from the atmosphere. So. Not all bad then.
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Stirlingsays 09 Nov 17 11.30am | |
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Originally posted by Park Road
Genghis Khan was a conqueror by force. The wars led in his name killed some 40 million people (about 10% of the world’s population at the time)! But, as a new study showed, these bloody conquests helped the environment – removing nearly 700 million tons of carbon from the atmosphere. So. Not all bad then. Genghis the environmentalist. Vote Genghis, get green......Well, go green and moldy out in the sun till they bury you.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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