Dear all,

I have just seen the documentary made by Gareth Thomas, it was on BBC Wales tonight, and will be on the 6th of August 2017 on BBC TWO

Can I please urge all Crystal Palace fans to watch this.

As a gay man, I am proud to support Crystal Palace, but on the programme this site was shown and at least 5 abusive messages. The language and content was disgusting and must be removed

Can the mods please ensure that all abusive messages on this site are deleted and that these members are banned.

This forum needs to demonstrate this is not tolerated.

Will watch the documentary when it's available on iPlayer. Do hope it doesn't paint HOL as a homophobic site by claiming that the responses of people like Parchmore are reflective of the general opinion.

Okay, have now watched the relevant part of the documentary. I was correct that Parchmore was one of the fools quoted, surprise surprise.

I was intrigued to see Gareth quote one of my responses as an example of an opinion which causes him to put his head in his hands - a state of despair which could perhaps have been avoided if he'd read the whole message, or even the whole sentence. Here is what I wrote:

'I don't think many people who join in the 'Brighton take it up the bum' chants have any real malicious intent, and are being knowingly juvenile for a laugh. But the chants do effectively put all homosexuals on the wrong side of the 'us vs them' divide, and equate them with a range of undesirable characteristics. Considering the history of instances of homophobia in football, the fact that these massed chants perpetuate intolerance, and the fact that there's little room for subtlety when it comes to a whole crowd chanting, I should think this sort of thing is best avoided - especially given the media profile of our club now.' (https://www.holmesdale.net/page.php?id=106&tid=166166&page=2)

Gareth only quoted the section in bold. Furthermore, the documentary makes it sound as if the author of my statement was also the author of the message underneath, the content of which I did not agree with.

Here is the other thing I had to say in another thread on the matter, which perhaps makes me clearer:

'If I can offer an overly intellectual opinion, I did make an interesting note from Randall Collins' book on the micro-sociology of violence recently:

'Despite the use of sexist epithets to insult men they do not like, the hooligans of the 1980s were ardent admirers of Margaret Thatcher and the queen—presumably because these could be used to assert English solidarity and superiority, and to put down respectable educated liberals and leftists; although in Italy they chant ‘f*** the Pope!’, at home they defend the Catholic church, out of hostility to the Anglican establishment (Buford 1993: 95). The pattern is much like that analyzed by Katz (1999) in his study of freeway road rage: curses are brought to one's lips because they fit the particular target one is confronting at the moment; they need not be based on deeply held beliefs, and the repertoire can be inconsistent and contradictory from occasion to occasion.'

I'd suggest that homophobic taunts are a similar phenomenon: those chanting mostly aren't deep-seated homophobes, but instrumentalise a background convention of homophobia, as Anthony King has argued in the case of most racist chanting.

So I don't think that most people joining in with these chants are particularly hateful; but intent is somewhat irrelevant when the effect is chanting that equates homosexuality with all sorts of negative traits. There's no room for subtlety in a crowd.' (https://www.holmesdale.net/page.php?id=106&tid=166664&page=2)

Gareth only quotes one message of opposition to homophobia, when these constituted the majority of responses. I posted in opposition to the 'gays = paedophiles' remark which he showcased, for example (https://www.holmesdale.net/page.php?id=106&tid=166866&page=4).

So if Gareth believes that I am one of the culprits of internet homophobia, then I would be very happy to talk directly with him as he requests and show him that I am not.

The thing is, Gareth: I'm on your side! I think homophobia is a blight on football and on society, and should be eradicated. But if you have to distort facts to prove that point, you're playing into the hands of the conspiracy-theorist homophobes who claim there's a gay agenda distorting the facts!

This sort of thing is entirely unnecessary, and I have to wonder if you did it deliberately, in order to prove your point that homophobia in football is (I quote) 'slowly but surely getting out of control'. You do not provide adequate evidence for this claim, and while I think homophobia in football is a problem which still exists and urgently needs to be addressed, most football fans and at least these experts who reported to a parliamentary select committee (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/18/football-fans-more-accepting-homosexuality-uk-homophobia-sport-inquiry) will inform you that in fact it is slowly but surely decreasing.

I will also send this message to Gareth.

Edited by Bangell (28 Jul 2017 12.38am)

'I don't think many people who join in the 'Brighton take it up the bum' chants have any real malicious intent, and are being knowingly juvenile for a laugh'

So if a footballer and heard this? how would expect them to react?

If you heard this in the work place how you react

Can I suggest that you read the Equality and Diversity Act

I was at an Ashes test match a few years ago and the great Glenn McGrath was fielding quite near where I was sitting. Now I often find cricket banter very funny and it was this time until a couple of the less intelligent shouted out that his wife took it up the bum.

Likewise David Beckham used to hear those very same taunts about his wife at every game he played in.

Well there's a surprise.