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PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 31 Jul 23 1.40pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

it is my personal opinion, and largely an historical fact...that that strip of Land has been a War-zone since the battle of Kadesh in 1500 BC.

similar to my opinions on Northern Ireland....who would be bothered fighting to own it ? Let them keep it. And it would be nice to see fewer cities carpet-bombed and fewer innocent kids getting killed.

 


Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 31 Jul 23 3.50pm Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

The problem is disputed ownership. Palestine is already occupied by Palestinians. Israel is stealing land by force and innocents are being injured and killed.
The World leaders offer nothing, but just avert their eyes.

 


I disengage, I turn the page.

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silvertop Flag Portishead 31 Jul 23 8.03pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

An excellent and interesting post.

I think a lot of why the US is where it is regarding Israel comes down to the donor class feeding both Republicans and Democrats and other factors but I also agree fully with your point regarding the religious Christian right's cheerleading opinion of Israel and its paradoxical nature.......but it should also be noted that religion is rapidly declining in the US.

The US is all about the money.....or to be more accurate, the wealth class within it.

As for China, they are secular but very ethnocentric.....which I like of course....but as western policy has actually driven Russia and China into each others arms.....rather than salvation I'll accept just avoiding anymore wars.

I don't want a drone in my or my children's face.

I don't want one either. However, on the highlighted point, I am not sure that is right. Africa is a battle ground between the West and Russian Wagner assisted client states (note those who still turned up for Putin last week) but the real winner there is China. It has spread its tentacles so thickly within that continent and exerts a considerable influence.

Again, for obvious reasons, I suspect it would dearly love to have the same investments and influence on the middle east; it may already have? The question is, if the West Bank and Gaza were offered Chinese factories and infrastructure, would Israel (i.e. the US) block it, or match it?

Don't believe the blarney. Northern Ireland was bought out of the Troubles through investment and jobs. You create an environment where people have no hope of employment prospect unless they leave, you create dissent. Palestine is no different. If they have good prospects and where they live is clean, prosperous and safe, they might forget over time what has been taken from them and done to them. Their Chinese backers would do all they could to ensure a stable territory to ensure they have cheap, ready labour and unfettered production.

Israel has still not grasped this. They have had one dumb ass right wing government after another (actually the same one) believing the only solution is force, knocking down a convicted terrorist's mother's house and stealing more of their land through that wretched wall and Settlements occupied by American Jewish settlers. All they are doing is feeding a self-defeating solution to a paranoid frightened people and ever stoking the fire.

 

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steeleye20 Flag Croydon 31 Jul 23 8.44pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

I don't want one either. However, on the highlighted point, I am not sure that is right. Africa is a battle ground between the West and Russian Wagner assisted client states (note those who still turned up for Putin last week) but the real winner there is China. It has spread its tentacles so thickly within that continent and exerts a considerable influence.

Again, for obvious reasons, I suspect it would dearly love to have the same investments and influence on the middle east; it may already have? The question is, if the West Bank and Gaza were offered Chinese factories and infrastructure, would Israel (i.e. the US) block it, or match it?

Don't believe the blarney. Northern Ireland was bought out of the Troubles through investment and jobs. You create an environment where people have no hope of employment prospect unless they leave, you create dissent. Palestine is no different. If they have good prospects and where they live is clean, prosperous and safe, they might forget over time what has been taken from them and done to them. Their Chinese backers would do all they could to ensure a stable territory to ensure they have cheap, ready labour and unfettered production.

Israel has still not grasped this. They have had one dumb ass right wing government after another (actually the same one) believing the only solution is force, knocking down a convicted terrorist's mother's house and stealing more of their land through that wretched wall and Settlements occupied by American Jewish settlers. All they are doing is feeding a self-defeating solution to a paranoid frightened people and ever stoking the fire.

Agreed with your last paragraph in particular.

I heard Olmert, PM of Israel 2006-9 saying the 2 state solution was the only way and that he had been in the final stages of an agreement with the Palestinians.

Tbh the coalition partner looks like a bunch of right wing thugs.

As FH says, the World leaders offer nothing, but avert their eyes.


 

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Stirlingsays Flag 31 Jul 23 9.25pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

I don't want one either. However, on the highlighted point, I am not sure that is right. Africa is a battle ground between the West and Russian Wagner assisted client states (note those who still turned up for Putin last week) but the real winner there is China. It has spread its tentacles so thickly within that continent and exerts a considerable influence.

Again, for obvious reasons, I suspect it would dearly love to have the same investments and influence on the middle east; it may already have? The question is, if the West Bank and Gaza were offered Chinese factories and infrastructure, would Israel (i.e. the US) block it, or match it?

Don't believe the blarney. Northern Ireland was bought out of the Troubles through investment and jobs. You create an environment where people have no hope of employment prospect unless they leave, you create dissent. Palestine is no different. If they have good prospects and where they live is clean, prosperous and safe, they might forget over time what has been taken from them and done to them. Their Chinese backers would do all they could to ensure a stable territory to ensure they have cheap, ready labour and unfettered production.

Israel has still not grasped this. They have had one dumb ass right wing government after another (actually the same one) believing the only solution is force, knocking down a convicted terrorist's mother's house and stealing more of their land through that wretched wall and Settlements occupied by American Jewish settlers. All they are doing is feeding a self-defeating solution to a paranoid frightened people and ever stoking the fire.

Personally, being a humble student of history I wouldn't have anything to do with Africa. It has the resources but it's a false horizon.....it's not politically correct to say it but outside of maybe North Africa...in my view it doesn't have the civilisational critical mass required to be what its investors think it should be.....It is what it is.

Literally Europeans have spent generations finding that out and still we have fools who haven't learnt the lesson because....Well essentially the stubbornness of the blank slate belief system and money possible with globalism. Trade deals are fine but I wouldn't be trying to complete for the dirty business of buying alignment in Africa. But hey, if Russia and China think Africa is somewhere to fight the west over, personally I would say they are welcome to it.....I know what I would do.....I would be investing elsewhere.

You seem to think that secularization and investment can breakdown conflicts and use NI as an example...Investment certainly helps....But I don't really agree that secular apathy is what happened in NI....the troubles were always about a minority in terms of actual fighting anyway. The IRA were still very active and a threat before the Good Friday agreement.....They ended it by essentially surrendering NI over...Having NI family I can tell you that resentments don't go away. What works is forcing change via the law and then waiting for the previous generation to die off.....Forced demographic change is changing Ireland more than people buying Playstations instead of going to church.

You seem to think that this process would work in Palestine? No chance in my view.

The two state solution won't work either, the right of neither side would accept it.....Palestinians aren't law abiding Europeans like the British and English who can be convinced to lose their own land.

No, I see that conflict ending only one way and it aren't pretty and hasn't been for decades.


Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Jul 2023 10.54pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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silvertop Flag Portishead 01 Aug 23 9.31am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Personally, being a humble student of history I wouldn't have anything to do with Africa. It has the resources but it's a false horizon.....it's not politically correct to say it but outside of maybe North Africa...in my view it doesn't have the civilisational critical mass required to be what its investors think it should be.....It is what it is.

Literally Europeans have spent generations finding that out and still we have fools who haven't learnt the lesson because....Well essentially the stubbornness of the blank slate belief system and money possible with globalism. Trade deals are fine but I wouldn't be trying to complete for the dirty business of buying alignment in Africa. But hey, if Russia and China think Africa is somewhere to fight the west over, personally I would say they are welcome to it.....I know what I would do.....I would be investing elsewhere.

You seem to think that secularization and investment can breakdown conflicts and use NI as an example...Investment certainly helps....But I don't really agree that secular apathy is what happened in NI....the troubles were always about a minority in terms of actual fighting anyway. The IRA were still very active and a threat before the Good Friday agreement.....They ended it by essentially surrendering NI over...Having NI family I can tell you that resentments don't go away. What works is forcing change via the law and then waiting for the previous generation to die off.....Forced demographic change is changing Ireland more than people buying Playstations instead of going to church.

You seem to think that this process would work in Palestine? No chance in my view.

The two state solution won't work either, the right of neither side would accept it.....Palestinians aren't law abiding Europeans like the British and English who can be convinced to lose their own land.

No, I see that conflict ending only one way and it aren't pretty and hasn't been for decades.


Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Jul 2023 10.54pm)

Yes, with a sigh, straws were being grasped. And there is no hope of the people who live there turning any corner without external intervention.

Annoyingly, a possible solution is Iran. Not now, of course, in its basket case condition, but at some future time if the glacially slow transition from revolutionary government to, at least, mildly sensible world player continues. Even the seriously hard radical element of Palestine might listen to them.

Regrettably, the only people the Israelis listen to is the US and I have highlighted the problem that no American government can be seen to be giving an inch to them Muslims (even though one-in-eleven Palestinians are Christian). And they only listen to them because the US props that nation up. Get a decent government in power (and Clinton was the last one in this respect, despite his failings elsewhere) and there is a chance.

Put an honest broker in the middle (the Swedes or Norwegians usually suffice for this) and add external investment (where the Chinese may come into play) and there is a hope.

The trouble is, people will still be upset. For generations. Clintons enforced reforms (remember the extraordinary scene of Israeli soldiers clearing the settlements of Jews) and 2 state solution have rapidly unraveled through agents of hate and self-service. Absent safeguards in place to prevent that (???) and huge sacrifices from both sides (some hope!), this is a problem with no solution.

 

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Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 01 Aug 23 10.25am Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It certainly feels like that, which given who is involved is very odd indeed. It will be interesting to observe it first-hand and directly hear opinions. From the reports, it appears this is very widely opposed and not what the people as a whole want. When I was there before, which is a long time ago, I went with some preconceptions which were revised to a degree because the relationships I saw between the Israelis and local Arabs was a lot better than I expected. Human nature overcoming political prejudice in clear view.

I am not going there for the politics. I am going for the history, and for my wife.

How much do you expect to pay for a wife ? Or are you selling ?

 


I disengage, I turn the page.

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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 22 Sep 23 9.47am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

A few reflections after my visit.

Political action was only noticeable by its absence. I saw one guy carrying a sign but no protests. People were just getting on with their lives.

We stayed in East Jerusalem and it was obvious that the local population there are doing ok. They looked fairly prosperous and had an active social life, although culturally it was unfamiliar. They were friendly and helpful though. We felt less welcome in other areas. Indeed the Israeli people we found generally unfriendly and quite rude, to the point of hostility at times. There were many exceptions though.

The only tensions that were in any way apparent were between the Jewish secular and religious communities and not between the Jewish and Muslim. Mind you we did not venture into the West Bank.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards georgenorman Flag 22 Sep 23 1.07pm Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

A few reflections after my visit.

Political action was only noticeable by its absence. I saw one guy carrying a sign but no protests. People were just getting on with their lives.

We stayed in East Jerusalem and it was obvious that the local population there are doing ok. They looked fairly prosperous and had an active social life, although culturally it was unfamiliar. They were friendly and helpful though. We felt less welcome in other areas. Indeed the Israeli people we found generally unfriendly and quite rude, to the point of hostility at times. There were many exceptions though.

The only tensions that were in any way apparent were between the Jewish secular and religious communities and not between the Jewish and Muslim. Mind you we did not venture into the West Bank.

More than 200 Palestinians and nearly 30 Israelis have been killed so far this year in the occupied West Bank and Israel [as at August, Aljazeera]

 

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PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 22 Sep 23 1.18pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Indeed the Israeli people we found generally unfriendly and quite rude, to the point of hostility at times.

i wouldnt take it personally- them being brusque with you. An Israeli friend told me they are like that to each other also.

 


Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford

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ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 23 Sep 23 10.34am Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

A few reflections after my visit.

Political action was only noticeable by its absence. I saw one guy carrying a sign but no protests. People were just getting on with their lives.

We stayed in East Jerusalem and it was obvious that the local population there are doing ok. They looked fairly prosperous and had an active social life, although culturally it was unfamiliar. They were friendly and helpful though. We felt less welcome in other areas. Indeed the Israeli people we found generally unfriendly and quite rude, to the point of hostility at times. There were many exceptions though.

The only tensions that were in any way apparent were between the Jewish secular and religious communities and not between the Jewish and Muslim. Mind you we did not venture into the West Bank.

I hope you have the rude ones a piece of your mind.

 


Red and Blue Army!

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HKOwen Flag Hong Kong 23 Sep 23 10.44am Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

Populism = popular, anyone who takes this word to be negative is patronising at best, or for some on this board, arrogant delusions of intellectual adequacy

 


Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

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