Leaving Neverland

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Leaving Neverland

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coulsdoneagle London 11 Mar 19 1.59pm
No he just liked kids sleeping in his bed and cuddling him like any normal adult would... As for why the accusations came out after he died, the bond between abuser and abused is very strong. These kids were convinced they loved MJ and would be willing to do anything to protect the person they believed they loved. I believe he is a wrongun and to be honest now he is dead we are unlikely to get any confirmation one way or the other so it’s up to personal choice on what you believe and how you want to treat his legacy and whether you want to listen to the music or not. I think separating the art and the artist is A tricky tightrope and like I said it comes down to personal opinion.
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coulsdoneagle

London 11 Mar 19 1.59pm

No he just liked kids sleeping in his bed and cuddling him like any normal adult would...

As for why the accusations came out after he died, the bond between abuser and abused is very strong. These kids were convinced they loved MJ and would be willing to do anything to protect the person they believed they loved.

I believe he is a wrongun and to be honest now he is dead we are unlikely to get any confirmation one way or the other so it’s up to personal choice on what you believe and how you want to treat his legacy and whether you want to listen to the music or not. I think separating the art and the artist is A tricky tightrope and like I said it comes down to personal opinion.

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 11 Mar 19 2.14pm
Originally posted by Beastie I still have Gary Glitter’s Rock and Roll Christmas on my festive play list because it’s a tune. I feel the same about music by Michael Jackson, who I’ve little doubt was a paedo. *Trying to erase art of any kind because it turns out the artist was a cnt is not the way to go.** I think similarly. ^^ Had they been known deviants at the time of production, then obviously nothing would be made public. However, Rolf's portrait of The Queen was quite splendid. Staff had it removed from Bucks House and/or public display after Rolf's conviction. I would have little doubt that painting wasn't destroyed, but resides somewhere in the Royals private quarters or in a storage vault. I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 11 Mar 19 2.14pm

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Originally posted by Beastie

I still have Gary Glitter’s Rock and Roll Christmas on my festive play list because it’s a tune. I feel the same about music by Michael Jackson, who I’ve little doubt was a paedo.

Trying to erase art of any kind because it turns out the artist was a c*nt is not the way to go.

I think similarly. ^^
Had they been known deviants at the time of production, then obviously nothing would be made public.
However, Rolf's portrait of The Queen was quite splendid. Staff had it removed from Bucks House and/or public display after Rolf's conviction.
I would have little doubt that painting wasn't destroyed, but resides somewhere in the Royals private quarters or in a storage vault.

I disengage, I turn the page.

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black eagle. south croydon. 11 Mar 19 3.22pm
I'm watching leaving Neverland right now. It's a shame he is not hear to defend himself. Saw him live many times,this programme doesn't put him in a good light.
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black eagle.

south croydon. 11 Mar 19 3.22pm

I'm watching leaving Neverland right now.
It's a shame he is not hear to defend himself.

Saw him live many times,this programme doesn't put him in a good light.

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Stirlingsays 11 Mar 19 3.31pm
Originally posted by black eagle. I'm watching leaving Neverland right now. It's a shame he is not hear to defend himself. Saw him live many times,this programme doesn't put him in a good light. Sure, but here's the other side of the story. [Link] 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

11 Mar 19 3.31pm

Originally posted by black eagle.

I'm watching leaving Neverland right now.
It's a shame he is not hear to defend himself.

Saw him live many times,this programme doesn't put him in a good light.

Sure, but here's the other side of the story.

[Link]

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Hrolf The Ganger 11 Mar 19 8.41pm
Originally posted by Beastie I still have Gary Glitter’s Rock and Roll Christmas on my festive play list because it’s a tune. I feel the same about music by Michael Jackson, who I’ve little doubt was a paedo. Trying to erase art of any kind because it turns out the artist was a c*nt is not the way to go. This is the point. If you don't know Jackson personally and your kids have never been around for a visit, what does it matter to you? His behaviour might be morally unacceptable but it makes no difference to his work as an artist. Gary Glitter and Jackson will not be removed from my iTunes playlist just the same as stuff produced by Phil Spector, who shot a woman in the face, or Jerry Lee Lewis who married a girl when she was 14. Just for the record, Two Little Boys was never on my playlist. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (11 Mar 2019 8.44pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

11 Mar 19 8.41pm

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Originally posted by Beastie

I still have Gary Glitter’s Rock and Roll Christmas on my festive play list because it’s a tune. I feel the same about music by Michael Jackson, who I’ve little doubt was a paedo.

Trying to erase art of any kind because it turns out the artist was a c*nt is not the way to go.

This is the point.

If you don't know Jackson personally and your kids have never been around for a visit, what does it matter to you?
His behaviour might be morally unacceptable but it makes no difference to his work as an artist.

Gary Glitter and Jackson will not be removed from my iTunes playlist just the same as stuff produced by Phil Spector, who shot a woman in the face, or Jerry Lee Lewis who married a girl when she was 14.

Just for the record, Two Little Boys was never on my playlist.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (11 Mar 2019 8.44pm)

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sickboy Deal or Croydon 11 Mar 19 10.24pm
As far as i am aware Jackson admitted that he had the kids sleep in his room/bed. Grown man grooming parents to allow it to happen by paying them/treating them etc. Also out of court settlements on some of the previously alleged charges. It doesnt read well even if as he claimed it was all innocent.
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sickboy

Deal or Croydon 11 Mar 19 10.24pm

As far as i am aware Jackson admitted that he had the kids sleep in his room/bed. Grown man grooming parents to allow it to happen by paying them/treating them etc. Also out of court settlements on some of the previously alleged charges. It doesnt read well even if as he claimed it was all innocent.

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sickboy Deal or Croydon 11 Mar 19 10.26pm
Just read my last post. Feck it its just wrong no matter what way you dice it. A childs innocence and love/trust is unconditional and imo Jackson abused that.No excuse is valid.
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sickboy

Deal or Croydon 11 Mar 19 10.26pm

Just read my last post. Feck it its just wrong no matter what way you dice it. A childs innocence and love/trust is unconditional and imo Jackson abused that.No excuse is valid.

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Teddy Eagle 11 Mar 19 11.34pm
Is there a statute of limitations in these cases? If Shakespeare was accused of the same thing and banned a lot of people would be out of work. And a lot of kids avoid being bored shirtless having to learn about his plays.
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Teddy Eagle

11 Mar 19 11.34pm

Is there a statute of limitations in these cases? If Shakespeare was accused of the same thing and banned a lot of people would be out of work. And a lot of kids avoid being bored shirtless having to learn about his plays.

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Stirlingsays 12 Mar 19 3.38am
There is a term used for those that look at an individual's character before some value they may bring....In this case it's entertainment. It's called 'purity spiraling'. It's saying that because of this flaw that I reject someone or that I won't use whatever it is that the particular individual produces. We should remember of course that with Jackson he wasn't working alone and that many of the songs he's known for were the work of teams. If this stuff about Jackson is true and the individual views Jackson as beyond the pale then that's understandable to me. No one is required to engage with any media, especially one that would be associated with abuse that actually happened. While I tend not to believe in 'purity spiraling' I think there are limits......For example, I'm just not that interested in reading Mao's 'Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong' or 'Mein Kampf' because, while they may have historical significance essentially they are preludes to millions of unnecessary deaths. Still, unless we are careful the problem with things like, 'purity spiraling' is that once you start where is the line.....before you know it people will be calling for the banning of Lennon's music because he knocked his birds about. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Mar 2019 3.42am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Mar 19 3.38am

There is a term used for those that look at an individual's character before some value they may bring....In this case it's entertainment.

It's called 'purity spiraling'.

It's saying that because of this flaw that I reject someone or that I won't use whatever it is that the particular individual produces.

We should remember of course that with Jackson he wasn't working alone and that many of the songs he's known for were the work of teams.

If this stuff about Jackson is true and the individual views Jackson as beyond the pale then that's understandable to me. No one is required to engage with any media, especially one that would be associated with abuse that actually happened.

While I tend not to believe in 'purity spiraling' I think there are limits......For example, I'm just not that interested in reading Mao's 'Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong' or 'Mein Kampf' because, while they may have historical significance essentially they are preludes to millions of unnecessary deaths.

Still, unless we are careful the problem with things like, 'purity spiraling' is that once you start where is the line.....before you know it people will be calling for the banning of Lennon's music because he knocked his birds about.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Mar 2019 3.42am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Teddy Eagle 12 Mar 19 9.31am
Also the fact that different things are deemed unacceptable at different times. In America in the 50s being a suspected communist was enough to stop a career. Divorce, non church attendance, adultery, being gay, etc, etc were all against social mores at one time. Not saying that what Jackson is accused of wasn’t infinitely more serious but who knows what will be thought of as shocking in 10 years time and lead to calls for bans? Not playing records is one thing but what happens if Edison is accused of something - will none of his inventions be allowed?
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Teddy Eagle

12 Mar 19 9.31am

Also the fact that different things are deemed unacceptable at different times. In America in the 50s being a suspected communist was enough to stop a career. Divorce, non church attendance, adultery, being gay, etc, etc were all against social mores at one time. Not saying that what Jackson is accused of wasn’t infinitely more serious but who knows what will be thought of as shocking in 10 years time and lead to calls for bans? Not playing records is one thing but what happens if Edison is accused of something - will none of his inventions be allowed?

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Hrolf The Ganger 12 Mar 19 10.06am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays There is a term used for those that look at an individual's character before some value they may bring....In this case it's entertainment. It's called 'purity spiraling'. It's saying that because of this flaw that I reject someone or that I won't use whatever it is that the particular individual produces. We should remember of course that with Jackson he wasn't working alone and that many of the songs he's known for were the work of teams. If this stuff about Jackson is true and the individual views Jackson as beyond the pale then that's understandable to me. No one is required to engage with any media, especially one that would be associated with abuse that actually happened. While I tend not to believe in 'purity spiraling' I think there are limits......For example, I'm just not that interested in reading Mao's 'Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong' or 'Mein Kampf' because, while they may have historical significance essentially they are preludes to millions of unnecessary deaths. Still, unless we are careful the problem with things like, 'purity spiraling' is that once you start where is the line.....before you know it people will be calling for the banning of Lennon's music because he knocked his birds about. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Mar 2019 3.42am) Nice term. The slippery slope is never far away when you start erasing people from history because of misdemeanors. With artists, it is totally irrational unless one is dim enough to believe that liking Thriller is akin to condoning child molesting.
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Hrolf The Ganger

12 Mar 19 10.06am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

There is a term used for those that look at an individual's character before some value they may bring....In this case it's entertainment.

It's called 'purity spiraling'.

It's saying that because of this flaw that I reject someone or that I won't use whatever it is that the particular individual produces.

We should remember of course that with Jackson he wasn't working alone and that many of the songs he's known for were the work of teams.

Still, unless we are careful the problem with things like, 'purity spiraling' is that once you start where is the line.....before you know it people will be calling for the banning of Lennon's music because he knocked his birds about.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Mar 2019 3.42am)

Nice term.

The slippery slope is never far away when you start erasing people from history because of misdemeanors.

With artists, it is totally irrational unless one is dim enough to believe that liking Thriller is akin to condoning child molesting.

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