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NYC explosion
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 Midlands Eagle  12 Dec 17 3.57pm |
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Originally posted by Jimenez
It's been reported here that the bomber managed to blow his own testicles off!! He won't be much use to all those virgins then
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Dec 17 4.00pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
However, people make these claims that the far right in America are a bigger threat, due to death count, than Islamism. I certainly agree that the far right mistrust of the government and gun culture goes to troubling extremes in America with incidents like Waco saw an explosion in them and today's rise in identity politics is producing the same as a response. However, these issues are apples and oranges in their aims So if this point is going to be raised in response to these problems I was looking for a proper examination of them..
I'd argue that any threat to life, based on politics, is a serious consideration. I don't think it has to be one or the other; the worrying trend is how different the focus tends to be. Islamists, probably are more likely a threat to life; but the far right is far more likely to be a threat to the American way of life - and have wider reaching support and association within the US than groups like IS. And when we're talking about US far right, that does include very dangerous and active groups that we don't really have here (Britain First and the EDL don't come close to the assorted Ayrian groups - which are actively politically (inc political violence), armed and involved directly in violence and criminality (basically they're organised crime networks). They also have degrees of political 'support' within the US political system, that groups like IS could never achieve.
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| Stirlingsays 12 Dec 17 4.44pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I'd argue that any threat to life, based on politics, is a serious consideration. I don't think it has to be one or the other; the worrying trend is how different the focus tends to be. Islamists, probably are more likely a threat to life; but the far right is far more likely to be a threat to the American way of life - and have wider reaching support and association within the US than groups like IS. And when we're talking about US far right, that does include very dangerous and active groups that we don't really have here (Britain First and the EDL don't come close to the assorted Ayrian groups - which are actively politically (inc political violence), armed and involved directly in violence and criminality (basically they're organised crime networks). They also have degrees of political 'support' within the US political system, that groups like IS could never achieve. Ok, well you have just come out and made that case. I agree that a threat to life is an issue that requires the attention of the state. As should be any crime networks. What I don't agree with is a conflating of Islamism with rednecks with guns and statements that appear wildly disproportionate. For example, what is the evidence for US far right groups being a 'threat to the American way of life'? I'm not seeing that at all. Apart from the lack of numbers that these groups have. I'm also seeing a lack of ambition from them for anything other than being left alone to continue their own weirdness. Like I said, where are the McVeighs coming after him.....it's a conflation. What I'm seeing is the continuance of a division that has existed within American society since before the civil war. A division that the modern version of identity politics has agitated for sure but it's a division that exists regardless to any one factor. 'you aint takin our guns'....and all that.....the separate mindsets between north and south.....nations within nations. The realities of that division always allow for the creation of anti state groups who exist at the tip of that spear. As for 'political support'.....I'm assuming you are referring to Trump tweets? What I've seen is him refuse to support one set of extremists over another....while obviously preferring those on the right. Still, only up to a point that interlocks with his interests. For example, hasn't he criticised 'hateful ideologies'? This isn't a guy looking to kill people. I haven't seen him directly supporting extremists. This is the dog whistle charge that is directed at nationalists......because...nationalism = evil to progressively minded chaps. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Dec 2017 4.52pm)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Dec 17 4.51pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Ok, well you have just come out and made that case. I agree that a threat to life is an issue that requires the attention of the state. What I don't agree with is a conflating of Islamism with rednecks with guns and statements that appear wildly disproportionate. For example, what is the evidence for US far right groups being a 'threat to the American way of life'? I'm not seeing that at all. Apart from the lack of numbers that these groups have. What I'm seeing is the continuance of a division that has existed within American society since before the civil war. A division that the modern version of identity politics has agitated for sure but it's a division that exists regardless to any one factor. 'you aint takin our guns'....and all that.....the separate mindsets between north and south.....nations within nations. The realities of that division always allow for the creation of anti state groups who exist at the tip of that spear. As for 'political support'.....I'm assuming you are referring to Trump tweets? What I've seen is him refuse to support one set of extremists over another. Hasn't he criticised 'hateful ideologies'? I haven't seen him directly supporting extremists. This is the dog whistle charge that is directed at nationalists......because...nationalism = evil to progressively minded chaps. I'd say that groups like IS, no matter how prolific aren't ever really going to influence political decisions and change in the US in any significant way. However, far right groups in the US, have in the past had that capability (the KKK have held significant political influence) and the far right does has the capacity to achieve political change in the US and has held political seats in the past. These movements have the capacity and have pursued political agendas that are unconstitutional and attack constitutional rights, which most certainly is attempting to undermine the 'US way of life'. The Christian Right constantly pushes the envelope of separation of church and state, and decisions of the supreme court, whilst senators often will place religious ideas ahead of the constitution - That undermines the very essence of the US Democratic way of life.
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| Stirlingsays 12 Dec 17 5.11pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
No, not at one percent they aren't. Allowing for the growth of that community there with its current doctrines however just gives them the criminal outcomes that politicians and 'progressive' ideas gave to this country. There is a reaction against our future in countries that don't currently have it. The populations there have the benefit of seeing the outcomes here. Originally posted by jamiemartin721
However, far right groups in the US, have in the past had that capability (the KKK have held significant political influence) and the far right does has the capacity to achieve political change in the US and has held political seats in the past. These movements have the capacity and have pursued political agendas that are unconstitutional and attack constitutional rights, which most certainly is attempting to undermine the 'US way of life'. ? 'In the past'. In the past this country had slavery....Sorry Jamie, I'm not seeing any great desire for the KKK in the US or anywhere else. It's a massive disproportionate statement. The numbers have increased in recent times due to identity politics in general but 'a threat to the American way of life'? Really Jamie? Originally posted by jamiemartin721
The Christian Right constantly pushes the envelope of separation of church and state, and decisions of the supreme court, whilst senators often will place religious ideas ahead of the constitution - That undermines the very essence of the US Democratic way of life. It isn't fair to hold the 'Christian Right' in the same argument as 'far right' groups. It's not in the ballpark. They are movements to be opposed for the defence of freedom of speech and civil liberties but they are not a threat to life in any meaningful level. The right are not the far right and vice versa. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Dec 2017 5.52pm)
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kenbarr  Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 17 Dec 17 5.34pm |
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I have to agree with Jamie. We have an incoming NYC Councilman, Ruben Diaz Sr., who is just as bad as Roy Moore. He places the Bible ahead of the Constitution and denies the words of Article VI, which says that no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification for an office or public trust under the US. He's a Democrat! His main concern is getting money for his district programs but in the past, while in the NY State Senate, he has opposed such policies a marriage equality, any rights for LGBTQ and a host of other human rights issues on the basis of religion. While he is unlikely to resort to violent acts, he has followers who have. While "condemning" the violence, such as attacks on health clinics that serve women and HIV/AIDS patients, he also says he understands the frustration of the bombers who see this country as "rejecting God." It's the same rhetoric as Moore. As for the "Christian" right, one only has to remember groups like Randall Terry's Operation Rescue, who thought nothing of violently harassing women seeking obstetric health care and approving of the assassination of doctors who performed abortions. In the 1960s & 70s it was the radical left who used civil rights and opposition to the Vietnam War as their excuse to attempt to impose their beliefs with violence. Edited by kenbarr (17 Dec 2017 5.37pm)
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| Stirlingsays 17 Dec 17 5.44pm |
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Originally posted by kenbarr
I have to agree with Jamie. We have an incoming NYC Councilman, Ruben Diaz Sr., who is just as bad as Roy Moore. He places the Bible ahead of the Constitution and denies the words of Article VI, which says that no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification for an office or public trust under the US. He's a Democrat! His main concern is getting money for his district programs but in the past, while in the NY State Senate, he has opposed such policies a marriage equality, any rights for LGBTQ and a host of other human rights issues on the basis of religion. While he is unlikely to resort to violent acts, he has followers who have. While "condemning" the violence, such as attacks on health clinics that serve women and HIV/AIDS patients, he also says he understands the frustration of the bombers who see this country as "rejecting God." It's the same rhetoric as Moore. As for the "Christian" right, one only has to remember groups like Randall Terry's Operation Rescue, who thought nothing of violently harassing women seeking obstetric health care and approving of the assassination of doctors who performed abortions. In the 1960s & 70s it was the radical left who used civil rights and opposition to the Vietnam War as their excuse to attempt to impose their beliefs with violence. Edited by kenbarr (17 Dec 2017 5.37pm) I am an opponent of the Christian religious right but sorry they aren't the far right and it's wrong to equate them....we can all pick out extreme examples but this is a large movement. Sanders had a follower who shot at republicans....progressives talk about murdering Trump all the time....I don't regard the core message of progressivism as being about killing its opponents...that's its fruitcakes....every movement has nutters. Palace itself has them. The sooner the religious puritans in America reform or become more rational human beings and stop their harmful practices the better....but the far right?
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 17 Dec 17 7.23pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I am an opponent of the Christian religious right but sorry they aren't the far right and it's wrong to equate them....we can all pick out extreme examples but this is a large movement. Sanders had a follower who shot at republicans....progressives talk about murdering Trump all the time....I don't regard the core message of progressivism as being about killing its opponents...that's its fruitcakes....every movement has nutters. Palace itself has them. The sooner the religious puritans in America reform or become more rational human beings and stop their harmful practices the better....but the far right?
You want the far right to carry on as normal?
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| Stirlingsays 18 Dec 17 2.55am |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
You want the far right to carry on as normal? We probably wouldn't agree on what is far right but no. I think the people I consider the far right should reform. Just the same way as elements of the far left should.
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