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jamiemartin721 Reading 26 Oct 17 10.24am | |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
The Iran deal and Paris accord are both bad deals for America. Obama signed them off to appear virtuous for his legacy. It's not a popularity contest, you work in the interests of the American people – not to be liked by the rest of the world. Obama's appeasement of Iran and Russia has made the US look weak and lose credibility on the world stage. Iran are complying with the deal – mainly because the deal is so weighted in their favour so they don't pull out. Which is why it was such a bad one in the first place. The deal does nothing to stop them from sponsoring terrorism around the world – now funded with fresh money. Under the terms, Iran gets to inspect its own military sites, and gets 3 months or more to hide its nuclear activity if it objects to an inspection. Obama's goal has been to make Iran a regional power as he thinks it's good for the region and the US. Israel and the rest of the Middle East all beg to differ! Iran is testing and developing long-range ballistic missiles. Trump is right to have re-think on this... Edited by Penge Eagle (25 Oct 2017 10.09pm) Which seemed to be fine when those terrorists were fighting in Syria and Iraq, against IS. You can't really hide nuclear activity easily, even in 3 months - and also produce enriched Uranium to make plutonium at the same time, without developing a second hidden nuclear site, that you relocate to. Its a very complicated and expensive process to develop a nuclear warhead, even once you've gotten to the stage of building a nuclear reactor. Then you have to develop the technology to miniaturise a warhead and develop means of delivering it. All the while managing to conceal radiation traces and employ and move the right people about etc. I doubt any nation state could manage to develop nuclear weapons without giving themselves away. I'm not saying though Iran couldn't, but that its almost impossible - especially with the capacity the US has in terms of satellite coverage. Iran already has long range missiles, which it bought I think from North Korea. What it doesn't have is the capacity to build its own.
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Stirlingsays 26 Oct 17 1.56pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
The dropping of the first bomb was, of course, for the first time not a test. Knowing the full results of that would have had a significant impact on the US decision whether to do it or not. Not a pleasant choice but there you go and it was a vicious time. It's also plain to see that if they had just stuck to conventional warfare or one of attrition - 'surrounding the islands' - then many, many millions would have died. As it stood the population were expected to give up their lives rather than surrender and what happened with the locals jumping off cliffs in Saipan had already confirmed this. Why would millions have died? Japan had already put out feelers for a conditional surrender. The second bomb? There were probably other options to force the Japanese High Command's hand but maybe the Yanks just did that one for expediency.
I'm not against the use of nuclear weapons.....but only as a last resort when you yourself are under genuine threat (obviously a very important judgement to get right) or mainland attack. Being pro American I've always struggled with what happened. Every country commits terrible acts and this goes down on the list the same as for everyone else. Just because the US is apart of my historical and cultural side can't make me ignore what essentially happened. This isn't a view that I came too lightly and I do understand the migrating circumstances of war and the fact that bombing the enemy was far more on the understanding that civilians were fair game. The decision has taken that Japan had to undergo complete submission. That's why it happened. Humanity was traded for war aims. It's not a logical position to say that dropping bombs on civilians in Japan was ok but dropping bombs on Korea isn't.....It only comes down to whether you agree with the war aims or not. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Oct 2017 2.02pm)
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Stirlingsays 26 Oct 17 2.00pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
I have always wondered why the Yanks didn't drop a bomb say 40 miles from Tokyo so the top people there could feel it, see it, smell it and put the fear of beejesus into them by dropping another close by soon after but maybe I have just answered my own question in my previous post. Human guinea pigs. I think they considered something like that and rejected it. Humanity traded for war aims......Afterwards there's been a cultural brainwashing about the whole thing. Japan could no longer threaten the US.....They decided to make that permanent.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Kermit8 Hevon 26 Oct 17 5.31pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I'm not against the use of nuclear weapons.....but only as a last resort when you yourself are under genuine threat (obviously a very important judgement to get right) or mainland attack. Being pro American I've always struggled with what happened. Every country commits terrible acts and this goes down on the list the same as for everyone else. Just because the US is apart of my historical and cultural side can't make me ignore what essentially happened. This isn't a view that I came too lightly and I do understand the migrating circumstances of war and the fact that bombing the enemy was far more on the understanding that civilians were fair game. The decision has taken that Japan had to undergo complete submission. That's why it happened. Humanity was traded for war aims. It's not a logical position to say that dropping bombs on civilians in Japan was ok but dropping bombs on Korea isn't.....It only comes down to whether you agree with the war aims or not. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Oct 2017 2.02pm) Everyone should be. Has to be. The alternative is unthinkable given that one bomb now, when there are others countries who also have them, could have a nuclear domino effect unlike in 1945 that could engulf the globe. It can never be 'ok'. It may happen in the future as a very, very last resort but that still wouldn't make it ok. Rational maybe but 'ok' definitely not.
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Penge Eagle Beckenham 26 Oct 17 9.08pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Which seemed to be fine when those terrorists were fighting in Syria and Iraq, against IS. You can't really hide nuclear activity easily, even in 3 months - and also produce enriched Uranium to make plutonium at the same time, without developing a second hidden nuclear site, that you relocate to. Its a very complicated and expensive process to develop a nuclear warhead, even once you've gotten to the stage of building a nuclear reactor. Then you have to develop the technology to miniaturise a warhead and develop means of delivering it. All the while managing to conceal radiation traces and employ and move the right people about etc. I doubt any nation state could manage to develop nuclear weapons without giving themselves away. I'm not saying though Iran couldn't, but that its almost impossible - especially with the capacity the US has in terms of satellite coverage. Iran already has long range missiles, which it bought I think from North Korea. What it doesn't have is the capacity to build its own. Iran also sponsors terrorists in Palestine, Lebanon and even South America. I'm not sure I agree with that at all. The US has not always been on top of what North Korea had been up to over the years. Weapons with uranium can more easily be hidden underground, away from weapons inspectors and satellites. That's the advantage over plutonium and what North Korea has been doing. Edited by Penge Eagle (26 Oct 2017 9.39pm)
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Stirlingsays 26 Oct 17 9.37pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Everyone should be. Has to be. The alternative is unthinkable given that one bomb now, when there are others countries who also have them, could have a nuclear domino effect unlike in 1945 that could engulf the globe. It can never be 'ok'. It may happen in the future as a very, very last resort but that still wouldn't make it ok. Rational maybe but 'ok' definitely not. I respect your position because we are talking about the extremes of war here. I agree that its use should only be as a last resort......However, sending yours over as you cities are the ones in flames represents an unacceptable failure. I can't see a domino effect personally. The nuclear balance works between rational actors. North Korea better hurry up and convince their enemies that they are rational actors because they truly are in danger otherwise.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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tome Inner Tantalus Time. 27 Oct 17 5.01pm | |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
Are you going to wait until they have a nuclear weapon capable of wiping out Israel to be satisfied that it's enough evidence? Look at the motives of Iran, its rhetoric and current missile testing and then look at the terms of the deal. It's all very questionable and the consequences are too great to give them an inch on this. Edited by Penge Eagle (25 Oct 2017 10.31pm) Iran isn't a singular being, it can't have motivations. I suppose if you look at some of the rhetoric of its leaders over time you'd assume they'd have malign intentions but that's true of many politicians. Why do we think the Iranians are different? Israel already has nuclear weapons and isn't even a signatory to the NPT or allow IAEA inspections. So they will be fine as they have the capacity to nuke anyone, not sure why this is less of a problem than Iran which does not. I do recall seeing a documentatary about the role of the British in the removal of Mossadeq from power in Iran over its attempt to nationalise oil in the 60's I think. So it's not surprising that there is hostility within Iran towards the West, but then I'm not sure about the timings of their involvement in Syria and so on.
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Ray in Houston Houston 27 Oct 17 5.07pm | |
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Originally posted by tome
I do recall seeing a documentatary about the role of the British in the removal of Mossadeq from power in Iran over its attempt to nationalise oil in the 60's I think. So it's not surprising that there is hostility within Iran towards the West, but then I'm not sure about the timings of their involvement in Syria and so on. Iran was a progressive, secular beacon in the Middle East before "we" - the west - toppled the government and installed the Shah purely to get access to all that luvverly oil. The revolution and subsequent Islamic theocracy was the backlash.
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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hedgehog50 Croydon 27 Oct 17 5.15pm | |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
Iran was a progressive, secular beacon in the Middle East before "we" - the west - toppled the government and installed the Shah purely to get access to all that luvverly oil. The revolution and subsequent Islamic theocracy was the backlash. LOL
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Ray in Houston Houston 27 Oct 17 5.48pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
LOL
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 27 Oct 17 7.17pm | |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
There's lots that Obama did (or didn't do) that I didn't like; no candidate is going to be perfect for everyone or even anyone. I look for a candidate with the most overlap in the Venn and live with the differences. My ballot in the last election (we have 30-something choices to make) contained X's for candidates from a wide band of parties: Republican to Green. Althougn Bin Laden was killed on Obama's watch, and he gave the order, the hunt by the US military had been going on since 11 Sept 2001. It could have happened under anyones presidency. I was generally appalled by the lack of early intervention against IS. That could've been nipped-in-the-bud so much earlier. And the citizens of Iraq spending years under a barbaric regime. The whole thing stinks
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tome Inner Tantalus Time. 30 Oct 17 3.41pm | |
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Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly
Althougn Bin Laden was killed on Obama's watch, and he gave the order, the hunt by the US military had been going on since 11 Sept 2001. It could have happened under anyones presidency. I was generally appalled by the lack of early intervention against IS. That could've been nipped-in-the-bud so much earlier. And the citizens of Iraq spending years under a barbaric regime. The whole thing stinks Agreed. If you are an arms company, I'd imagine that two things mean sales: war and fear of war. Given how much money big arms firms have, it wouldn't exactly be a surprise to find that money gets funnelled to troublemakers with that aim. Not sure what you do about it mind.
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