Real Reason We Lost.

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Real Reason We Lost.

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 19 Oct 16 10.37am
Originally posted by citizensmudge On this thread alone I have said he should have taken Ledley off after 15 minutes as well as my problem with Punch playing in the deeper role.That is me disagreeing with AP,one is a long term problem and one was something I feel he should have done quicker on Saturday.If he had started with Cabaye and not Ledley on Saturday you would have been the first to criticise him and after the last 6 games it was never going to happen.We had no Dann,our skipper and most influential defender so having named his 11 before getting the Wetspam team sheet exactly what does everyone saying he should have had a back up plan suggest he should have changed in 30 minutes before the game? I see loads of "he should have had a plan B" but seemingly none of you can suggest what that should have been. And apparently if he doesn't change things in the first 45 then it doesn't count,as he changed it at half time and we dominated the second half.How many sides that play 4-4-2 week in week out do you think will change to a 3-5-2 against us on the back of what Bilic did against us?Not many if any I will guarantee you that,and why?Because teams play to their strengths,the vast majority don't suddenly change their system for one game unless of course like Wetspam they have pretty much nothing to lose after a run of horrendous results.AP will have trained all week to play against the team that Bilic had been putting out all season,i know you put our run of form solely down to every game being against s* opposition which is the bit that pisses me off more than anything.We win its nothing to do with AP getting it right but as soon as we lose its because he got it wrong.That attitude can only be because of an underlying issue with the manager,closing your eyes to the positive but soap box the negatives.What makes me laugh out of all this is you keep putting in "I don't even blame Pardew" in every so often in between your "where he got it wrong" comments.Funny as.... It is possible to recognise a fault without blaming someone. FFS you're doing it yourself but because of your sanctimonious double standards you can't see it. You call it 'disagreeing' with Pardew but with me or others it's as if we're digging him out massively or committed a cardinal sin and adultery with Mrs Pardew. The irony all over there. Oh and I do agree with you regarding puncheon and he shouldn't be playing deep, but I can promise you if Pardew dropped Ledley and played Cabaye I wouldn't have been surprised or bothered. It was always going to happen. You seem determined to cling to this belief that managers don't change tactics. When will we adapt to another 5-3-2? After 3/4 months months? How could we have adapted? Well Dann not playing is not an excuse. We had 3 CBs Delaney, Tomkins, Kelly on the team sheet. 2 of Zaha, Townsend, ward to play down the sides and several midfielders. Or you keep it almost the same and use the spaces left by 3-5-2 if you're not easing your way back after a break vs a team keen for a win such as Saturday. Don't tell me that's all out of his hands. Again, I don't blame him but as youre excusing him of almost everything then I'm highlighting it. It will be an issue if its repeated a lot more. COYP**
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 19 Oct 16 10.37am

Originally posted by citizensmudge

On this thread alone I have said he should have taken Ledley off after 15 minutes as well as my problem with Punch playing in the deeper role.That is me disagreeing with AP,one is a long term problem and one was something I feel he should have done quicker on Saturday.If he had started with Cabaye and not Ledley on Saturday you would have been the first to criticise him and after the last 6 games it was never going to happen.We had no Dann,our skipper and most influential defender so having named his 11 before getting the Wetspam team sheet exactly what does everyone saying he should have had a back up plan suggest he should have changed in 30 minutes before the game? I see loads of "he should have had a plan B" but seemingly none of you can suggest what that should have been. And apparently if he doesn't change things in the first 45 then it doesn't count,as he changed it at half time and we dominated the second half.How many sides that play 4-4-2 week in week out do you think will change to a 3-5-2 against us on the back of what Bilic did against us?Not many if any I will guarantee you that,and why?Because teams play to their strengths,the vast majority don't suddenly change their system for one game unless of course like Wetspam they have pretty much nothing to lose after a run of horrendous results.AP will have trained all week to play against the team that Bilic had been putting out all season,i know you put our run of form solely down to every game being against s*** opposition which is the bit that pisses me off more than anything.We win its nothing to do with AP getting it right but as soon as we lose its because he got it wrong.That attitude can only be because of an underlying issue with the manager,closing your eyes to the positive but soap box the negatives.What makes me laugh out of all this is you keep putting in "I don't even blame Pardew" in every so often in between your "where he got it wrong" comments.Funny as....

It is possible to recognise a fault without blaming someone. FFS you're doing it yourself but because of your sanctimonious double standards you can't see it. You call it 'disagreeing' with Pardew but with me or others it's as if we're digging him out massively or committed a cardinal sin and adultery with Mrs Pardew. The irony all over there.

Oh and I do agree with you regarding puncheon and he shouldn't be playing deep, but I can promise you if Pardew dropped Ledley and played Cabaye I wouldn't have been surprised or bothered. It was always going to happen.

You seem determined to cling to this belief that managers don't change tactics.

When will we adapt to another 5-3-2? After 3/4 months months?

How could we have adapted? Well Dann not playing is not an excuse. We had 3 CBs Delaney, Tomkins, Kelly on the team sheet. 2 of Zaha, Townsend, ward to play down the sides and several midfielders. Or you keep it almost the same and use the spaces left by 3-5-2 if you're not easing your way back after a break vs a team keen for a win such as Saturday. Don't tell me that's all out of his hands.

Again, I don't blame him but as youre excusing him of almost everything then I'm highlighting it. It will be an issue if its repeated a lot more.

COYP

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citizensmudge midlands 19 Oct 16 2.17pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman It is possible to recognise a fault without blaming someone. FFS you're doing it yourself but because of your sanctimonious double standards you can't see it. You call it 'disagreeing' with Pardew but with me or others it's as if we're digging him out massively or committed a cardinal sin and adultery with Mrs Pardew. The irony all over there. Oh and I do agree with you regarding puncheon and he shouldn't be playing deep, but I can promise you if Pardew dropped Ledley and played Cabaye I wouldn't have been surprised or bothered. It was always going to happen. You seem determined to cling to this belief that managers don't change tactics. When will we adapt to another 5-3-2? After 3/4 months months? How could we have adapted? Well Dann not playing is not an excuse. We had 3 CBs Delaney, Tomkins, Kelly on the team sheet. 2 of Zaha, Townsend, ward to play down the sides and several midfielders. Or you keep it almost the same and use the spaces left by 3-5-2 if you're not easing your way back after a break vs a team keen for a win such as Saturday. Don't tell me that's all out of his hands. Again, I don't blame him but as youre excusing him of almost everything then I'm highlighting it. It will be an issue if its repeated a lot more. I don't think the root problem was out wide,i think it was in the middle of the park where we just didn't compete and get our foot on the ball.Ledley was a passenger,Punch is simply not a DM and as soon as McArthur pushed forward to support Benteke Wetspam had the run of the park.Cresswell made the difference admittedly but only because they had so much possession and we couldn't get the ball let alone feed Wilf so he had no real defensive duties.They overloaded our right flank and Ward and Zaha struggled to contain them.Lanzini and Payet both played in the hole behind Zaza and because of their mobility compared to Ledley and Punch we were given a lesson in how to keep the ball.What you refuse to acknowledge is the changes he made at half time, we didn't swap to a 3-5-2/5-3-2 we simply introduced Cabaye who is more mobile and creative than Ledley and threw some pace down the left flank with Fryers.The space they had been using was taken away and we then dominated the game,evidently Bilic didn't have a Plan B once AP changed things around!!Like I said,changing to a different defensive formation could quite easily make things worse especially when our Captain is injured and the use of hindsight and guesswork makes it easy to suggest.I would like to see us play a 3-5-2 once Remy is fit and weve worked on it in training so everyone knows their job.But playing it knee jerk and without the personnel to make it a better option than we currently play is not for me.Get back to basics with Cabaye and McArthur as the midfield base and play Punch,Lee or my big hope once hes fit Remy in the 10 role.
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citizensmudge

midlands 19 Oct 16 2.17pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

You seem determined to cling to this belief that managers don't change tactics.

When will we adapt to another 5-3-2? After 3/4 months months?

Again, I don't blame him but as youre excusing him of almost everything then I'm highlighting it. It will be an issue if its repeated a lot more.

I don't think the root problem was out wide,i think it was in the middle of the park where we just didn't compete and get our foot on the ball.Ledley was a passenger,Punch is simply not a DM and as soon as McArthur pushed forward to support Benteke Wetspam had the run of the park.Cresswell made the difference admittedly but only because they had so much possession and we couldn't get the ball let alone feed Wilf so he had no real defensive duties.They overloaded our right flank and Ward and Zaha struggled to contain them.Lanzini and Payet both played in the hole behind Zaza and because of their mobility compared to Ledley and Punch we were given a lesson in how to keep the ball.What you refuse to acknowledge is the changes he made at half time, we didn't swap to a 3-5-2/5-3-2 we simply introduced Cabaye who is more mobile and creative than Ledley and threw some pace down the left flank with Fryers.The space they had been using was taken away and we then dominated the game,evidently Bilic didn't have a Plan B once AP changed things around!!Like I said,changing to a different defensive formation could quite easily make things worse especially when our Captain is injured and the use of hindsight and guesswork makes it easy to suggest.I would like to see us play a 3-5-2 once Remy is fit and weve worked on it in training so everyone knows their job.But playing it knee jerk and without the personnel to make it a better option than we currently play is not for me.Get back to basics with Cabaye and McArthur as the midfield base and play Punch,Lee or my big hope once hes fit Remy in the 10 role.

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 19 Oct 16 5.40pm
Well I agree with what you're saying regarding Puncheon shouldn't be playing deep and Ledley hardly got near the ball for 45 mins. But what I don't really agree with is how they can come out from the off and dominate so convincingly. Ok they had 3 men at the back in the middle and 2 men to always deal with Benteke, which is what I was expecting as soon as I knew their formation. But because of that they didn't have any more players going forward than we had back. Like I say I don't blame him but it's going to need addressing or half the league will start it on us. Maybe slow the game down. Maybe contain or less attacking. Maybe drill them on shifting across if the overlap happens more often. Or covering any build up play through the middle from being ready and there. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 19 Oct 16 5.40pm

Well I agree with what you're saying regarding Puncheon shouldn't be playing deep and Ledley hardly got near the ball for 45 mins.

But what I don't really agree with is how they can come out from the off and dominate so convincingly. Ok they had 3 men at the back in the middle and 2 men to always deal with Benteke, which is what I was expecting as soon as I knew their formation. But because of that they didn't have any more players going forward than we had back.

Like I say I don't blame him but it's going to need addressing or half the league will start it on us. Maybe slow the game down. Maybe contain or less attacking. Maybe drill them on shifting across if the overlap happens more often. Or covering any build up play through the middle from being ready and there.

COYP

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ParchmoreEagle Belair 20 Oct 16 3.27pm
Originally posted by Uphill .. back to the question .. it is so glaringly obvious and as I, and many others, have repeatedly pointed out: we have no creative midfield. Passes sideways, backwards, abortive one-twos and the get-rid-of-it-quick mentality just doesn't work, not for us anyway. That is why Gayle had no chance - he didn't get the through balls he thrives on. Similarly with Murray. Both will now prosper and in Gayle's case I am confident he will make the PL grade if Newcastle get promoted. Any player we've had with holding and passing skill gets ignored: Bannan, Garvan, Williams and now, Lee - what a waste! Our eggs seem all to be in the one basket - Benteke. For all his ability he can't expect to convert the few crosses he gets if he is marked by two or three defenders, as by West Ham. Although past their prime I am sure that the likes of Scott Parker, Lee Tomlin, even Ben Watson would be a temporary fix until we can get a young, genuine ball-holding player who can move it forward while the forwards get in position. We have absolutely no one at present, apart from Lee, who can fill this vital role. That's the main reason we lost, and it will continue because we don't have the skills for the 'new style of play' I agree. It is irritating to see the idiots on here not seeing that. This is part of the reason I don't rate Pardew. I've been saying it for ages now: nothing wrong with most of our strikers of the last few years. We simply pay zero attention to the midifelders training to find ways to get the ball to them. I've been watching the Newcastle matches and it is usually Shelvey threading pass after pass to Gayle. But we seem to look at players in isolation. How mind-bogglingly dumb! 'Oh we need a Benteke...or a Wickham...or adebayor...Oh, they were no good...have to sell them...(derrrrrr). What's a good striker? Someone you can hoof the ball to and they beat ten players and score! Idiots. We needed Shelvey or similar. Getting bored now with the dumbies on here. [Link]
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ParchmoreEagle

Belair 20 Oct 16 3.27pm

Originally posted by Uphill

.. back to the question .. it is so glaringly obvious and as I, and many others, have repeatedly pointed out: we have no creative midfield.

Passes sideways, backwards, abortive one-twos and the get-rid-of-it-quick mentality just doesn't work, not for us anyway.

That is why Gayle had no chance - he didn't get the through balls he thrives on. Similarly with Murray. Both will now prosper and in Gayle's case I am confident he will make the PL grade if Newcastle get promoted.
Any player we've had with holding and passing skill gets ignored:
Bannan, Garvan, Williams and now, Lee - what a waste!

Our eggs seem all to be in the one basket - Benteke. For all his ability he can't expect to convert the few crosses he gets if he is marked by two or three defenders, as by West Ham.

Although past their prime I am sure that the likes of Scott Parker, Lee Tomlin, even Ben Watson would be a temporary fix until we can get a young, genuine ball-holding player who can move it forward while the forwards get in position. We have absolutely no one at present, apart from Lee, who can fill this vital role.

That's the main reason we lost, and it will continue because we don't have the skills for the 'new style of play'

I agree. It is irritating to see the idiots on here not seeing that. This is part of the reason I don't rate Pardew. I've been saying it for ages now: nothing wrong with most of our strikers of the last few years. We simply pay zero attention to the midifelders training to find ways to get the ball to them. I've been watching the Newcastle matches and it is usually Shelvey threading pass after pass to Gayle. But we seem to look at players in isolation. How mind-bogglingly dumb! 'Oh we need a Benteke...or a Wickham...or adebayor...Oh, they were no good...have to sell them...(derrrrrr). What's a good striker? Someone you can hoof the ball to and they beat ten players and score! Idiots. We needed Shelvey or similar. Getting bored now with the dumbies on here.

[Link]

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spartakev2 Anerley 20 Oct 16 4.14pm
Originally posted by ParchmoreEagle I agree. It is irritating to see the idiots on here not seeing that. This is part of the reason I don't rate Pardew. I've been saying it for ages now: nothing wrong with most of our strikers of the last few years. We simply pay zero attention to the midifelders training to find ways to get the ball to them. I've been watching the Newcastle matches and it is usually Shelvey threading pass after pass to Gayle. But we seem to look at players in isolation. How mind-bogglingly dumb! 'Oh we need a Benteke...or a Wickham...or adebayor...Oh, they were no good...have to sell them...(derrrrrr). What's a good striker? Someone you can hoof the ball to and they beat ten players and score! Idiots. We needed Shelvey or similar. Getting bored now with the dumbies on here. Wow what a patronising a**e
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spartakev2

Anerley 20 Oct 16 4.14pm

Originally posted by ParchmoreEagle

Wow what a patronising a**e

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citizensmudge midlands 20 Oct 16 4.24pm
Originally posted by ParchmoreEagle I agree. It is irritating to see the idiots on here not seeing that. This is part of the reason I don't rate Pardew. I've been saying it for ages now: nothing wrong with most of our strikers of the last few years. We simply pay zero attention to the midifelders training to find ways to get the ball to them. I've been watching the Newcastle matches and it is usually Shelvey threading pass after pass to Gayle. But we seem to look at players in isolation. How mind-bogglingly dumb! 'Oh we need a Benteke...or a Wickham...or adebayor...Oh, they were no good...have to sell them...(derrrrrr). What's a good striker? Someone you can hoof the ball to and they beat ten players and score! Idiots. We needed Shelvey or similar. Getting bored now with the dumbies on here. Fertilising the Hol since January 2015.
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citizensmudge

midlands 20 Oct 16 4.24pm

Originally posted by ParchmoreEagle

Fertilising the Hol since January 2015.

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