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sydtheeagle England 20 Oct 15 9.10pm | |
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Quote -TUX- at 20 Oct 2015 7.18pm
Edit: Two world Wars didn't last as long as this alleged Middle East crisis. Edited by -TUX- (20 Oct 2015 7.30pm) That's largely because the two World Wars were fought with a clear objective and where that objective required compromise among unlikely allies, it was more or less rapidly and immediately achieved. And that was because the war was fought in a theatre (Europe) where all parties had common physical interests; the protection (or expansion) of their own national boundaries. Conversely, the Middle East isn't located in Europe (obviously) so the interest in affairs there is primarily economic, and the powers attempting to influence those affairs have competing, rather than common, economic interests. Furthermore, the adherence of some parties more than others to some sort of human rights dogma obscures their willingness to make difficult moral decisions of the kind which are rarely palatable socially but are nevertheless almost always necessary to waging a successful military campaign. The real points are: 1. Don't get involved in someone else's affairs if you haven't got the stomach for a fight or, if you do get involved on that basis, don't expect it to go well, and 2. If you're not pursuing an outcome you can guarantee to deliver, there's no point wasting lives. The real tragedy of the Middle East is the number of people (soldiers and citizens alike, on both sides) who have died for nothing. We are no better off for their sacrifice. At least the lost generation in the first half of the last century died to protect freedom and achieved their goal. The politicians of all parties should be ashamed of themselves; either for lacking the courage of their convictions or having the wrong convictions in the first place; as you prefer.
Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God. |
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-TUX- Alphabettispaghetti 20 Oct 15 9.17pm | |
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Quote OldFella at 20 Oct 2015 8.34pm
Quote -TUX- at 20 Oct 2015 7.18pm
Quote sydtheeagle at 20 Oct 2015 6.38pm
Quote -TUX- at 20 Oct 2015 6.34pm
Our (US et al) failed strategy in the Middle East It hasn't failed at all. It does if you want to shovel through a few "homeland security" laws unopposed. But that view's too cynical even for me.
Each to their own. Edit: Two world Wars didn't last as long as this alleged Middle East crisis. Edited by -TUX- (20 Oct 2015 7.30pm) "There's someone in my head, but it's not me.." Until you post the answer to this 'issue', then my stance is currently as legitimate as yours is it not?
Time to move forward together. |
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-TUX- Alphabettispaghetti 22 Oct 15 8.30pm | |
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Quote sydtheeagle at 20 Oct 2015 9.10pm
Quote -TUX- at 20 Oct 2015 7.18pm
Edit: Two world Wars didn't last as long as this alleged Middle East crisis. Edited by -TUX- (20 Oct 2015 7.30pm) That's largely because the two World Wars were fought with a clear objective and where that objective required compromise among unlikely allies, it was more or less rapidly and immediately achieved. And that was because the war was fought in a theatre (Europe) where all parties had common physical interests; the protection (or expansion) of their own national boundaries. Conversely, the Middle East isn't located in Europe (obviously) so the interest in affairs there is primarily economic, and the powers attempting to influence those affairs have competing, rather than common, economic interests. Furthermore, the adherence of some parties more than others to some sort of human rights dogma obscures their willingness to make difficult moral decisions of the kind which are rarely palatable socially but are nevertheless almost always necessary to waging a successful military campaign. The real points are: 1. Don't get involved in someone else's affairs if you haven't got the stomach for a fight or, if you do get involved on that basis, don't expect it to go well, and 2. If you're not pursuing an outcome you can guarantee to deliver, there's no point wasting lives. The real tragedy of the Middle East is the number of people (soldiers and citizens alike, on both sides) who have died for nothing. We are no better off for their sacrifice. At least the lost generation in the first half of the last century died to protect freedom and achieved their goal. The politicians of all parties should be ashamed of themselves; either for lacking the courage of their convictions or having the wrong convictions in the first place; as you prefer.
PS Geography has nothing to do with it as our past conquests show.
Time to move forward together. |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Oct 15 9.46am | |
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Quote sydtheeagle at 20 Oct 2015 9.10pm
Quote -TUX- at 20 Oct 2015 7.18pm
Edit: Two world Wars didn't last as long as this alleged Middle East crisis. Edited by -TUX- (20 Oct 2015 7.30pm) That's largely because the two World Wars were fought with a clear objective and where that objective required compromise among unlikely allies, it was more or less rapidly and immediately achieved. And that was because the war was fought in a theatre (Europe) where all parties had common physical interests; the protection (or expansion) of their own national boundaries. Conversely, the Middle East isn't located in Europe (obviously) so the interest in affairs there is primarily economic, and the powers attempting to influence those affairs have competing, rather than common, economic interests. Furthermore, the adherence of some parties more than others to some sort of human rights dogma obscures their willingness to make difficult moral decisions of the kind which are rarely palatable socially but are nevertheless almost always necessary to waging a successful military campaign. The real points are: 1. Don't get involved in someone else's affairs if you haven't got the stomach for a fight or, if you do get involved on that basis, don't expect it to go well, and 2. If you're not pursuing an outcome you can guarantee to deliver, there's no point wasting lives. The real tragedy of the Middle East is the number of people (soldiers and citizens alike, on both sides) who have died for nothing. We are no better off for their sacrifice. At least the lost generation in the first half of the last century died to protect freedom and achieved their goal. The politicians of all parties should be ashamed of themselves; either for lacking the courage of their convictions or having the wrong convictions in the first place; as you prefer.
The problem is we don't have an objective, where as groups like IS, Islamic Jyhad etc do. Unlike Al-Queda, most of the middle eastern Islamist groups have objectives and a goal. Where as our objective and goals are really summised by 'killing them when we can locate them', and trying to get other groups to do the same. The problem is we also tend to rely on somewhat questionable intelligence as to 'who is IS / the Taliban' often from sources of human intelligence that have their own agenda.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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oldcodger 23 Oct 15 2.05pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 23 Oct 2015 9.46am
Quote sydtheeagle at 20 Oct 2015 9.10pm
Quote -TUX- at 20 Oct 2015 7.18pm
Edit: Two world Wars didn't last as long as this alleged Middle East crisis. Edited by -TUX- (20 Oct 2015 7.30pm) That's largely because the two World Wars were fought with a clear objective and where that objective required compromise among unlikely allies, it was more or less rapidly and immediately achieved. And that was because the war was fought in a theatre (Europe) where all parties had common physical interests; the protection (or expansion) of their own national boundaries. Conversely, the Middle East isn't located in Europe (obviously) so the interest in affairs there is primarily economic, and the powers attempting to influence those affairs have competing, rather than common, economic interests. Furthermore, the adherence of some parties more than others to some sort of human rights dogma obscures their willingness to make difficult moral decisions of the kind which are rarely palatable socially but are nevertheless almost always necessary to waging a successful military campaign. The real points are: 1. Don't get involved in someone else's affairs if you haven't got the stomach for a fight or, if you do get involved on that basis, don't expect it to go well, and 2. If you're not pursuing an outcome you can guarantee to deliver, there's no point wasting lives. The real tragedy of the Middle East is the number of people (soldiers and citizens alike, on both sides) who have died for nothing. We are no better off for their sacrifice. At least the lost generation in the first half of the last century died to protect freedom and achieved their goal. The politicians of all parties should be ashamed of themselves; either for lacking the courage of their convictions or having the wrong convictions in the first place; as you prefer.
The problem is we don't have an objective, where as groups like IS, Islamic Jyhad etc do. Unlike Al-Queda, most of the middle eastern Islamist groups have objectives and a goal. Where as our objective and goals are really summised by 'killing them when we can locate them', and trying to get other groups to do the same. The problem is we also tend to rely on somewhat questionable intelligence as to 'who is IS / the Taliban' often from sources of human intelligence that have their own agenda. True, we're aimless. Our governments don't even have a preference between war and peace in the middle east, only what's in our self interest at the time. Edited by oldcodger (23 Oct 2015 7.11pm)
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