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Plane Crash In France

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The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 30 Mar 15 1.06pm Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Mar 2015 1.01pm

Quote bubble wrap at 28 Mar 2015 9.01pm

Quote cornwalls palace at 28 Mar 2015 7.21pm

Quote Seth at 28 Mar 2015 1.31pm

Quote palace777 at 28 Mar 2015 8.18am

Distance is a big power factor in the surrender of personal responsibility - We negotiate our responsibility for our actions in a social frame work of power relations they occur within.


what the f*ck doe`s this mean in english?


It means if we don't perceive the consequences of our actions it makes them easier for us to bear.

An ex-gf of Lubitz has said he told her that one day everyone would know his name, which kind of backs up what I posted the other day about him perhaps wanting to be "somebody". [Link]

I have another theory that his actions were a way of sticking two fingers up at the medics who signed him off, a way of saying something like "you think I'm mad? ok I'll show you how mad I am".

..but his poor family, their lives are utterly ruined and they will no doubt have to hide away denying he ever existed, all pilots are now going to have to be vigorously retested like never before and all planes are going to have to be adjusted at even more cost....and guess who's paying!

Not bothered about his family, heard a guy on the news say he was a friend of a wife, husband and child that all died in the crash. said the whole family are in bits.

Too soon?

I was gonna but pulled back...hats off...

 


As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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bexleydave Flag Barnehurst 30 Mar 15 1.53pm Send a Private Message to bexleydave Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add bexleydave as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Mar 2015 12.56pm

Thing is, why should it end his career because he had an episode in 2009. Wouldn't that just encourage people not to report it, or seek treatment. Shouldn't we, as a society, be more compassionate to people who are sick, and rather than punish them for being sick actively come togeather to support them. Surely the most that should ever happen is someone is given an extended sick leave, full pay, until they can resume or offered some form of retirement package.

Its hard enough for people with mental health problems to get jobs, without sacking them when they do. As someone who suffers from clincial depression, the stigma in interviews and employment is such that generally your options are benefits, or don't tell.

No doctor should be allowed to break patient confidentiality agreement, unless there is a clear and present risk to someone. Otherwise people will cease to seek treatement, and treatment becomes less effective as the patient will not be capable of confidence in confiding which would render treatment ineffective.

Its a fact of life, people with health problems will be found in all walks of life. The question really should be, not how do we prevent them getting the jobs, but how do we prevent their suffering in the first place.


That's a pretty insightful view of depressive illness and the potential effect on employment. Sufferers from depression are not necessarily, or indeed usually, suicidal. Doctors in England are required to report conditions that have safety implications (such as to the DVLA), but this would not normally include a moderate to severe depressive episode.

 


Bexley Dave

Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing!

"The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 30 Mar 15 2.25pm

Quote The Sash at 30 Mar 2015 1.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 27 Mar 2015 10.14pm

Lufthansa just announced that 5ft 5 overly made up girlie flight attendants must now take a place in the cockpit when one pilot needs to go for a slash in case the other pilot - 6ft bloke - is a suicidal nutter on a mission.

Definitely only flying with them from now on.

Preferable to effeminate flight attendant Gunther, who lives in a bijou little flat with Helmut, a minor TV executive and a small poodle called Fritz in the Poofenstrasse district of Wupperthal - and you know what those German lasses are like when you give them a uniform..I bet she will Irma Grese all over his sorry white arse

Saw a bit of Sky news this morning and they are talking about identifying DNA 'strands' from victims - shorthand for there isn't a lot left to identify - grim isn't even close

In fairness Gunther is probably more adept at struggling in the cockpit.

Would that be because the plane hit the ground at flight speed, where as if it broke up or lost power, it would hit at terminal velocity (450 odd mph as opposed to around 180).

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 30 Mar 15 2.35pm

Quote bexleydave at 30 Mar 2015 1.53pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Mar 2015 12.56pm

Thing is, why should it end his career because he had an episode in 2009. Wouldn't that just encourage people not to report it, or seek treatment. Shouldn't we, as a society, be more compassionate to people who are sick, and rather than punish them for being sick actively come togeather to support them. Surely the most that should ever happen is someone is given an extended sick leave, full pay, until they can resume or offered some form of retirement package.

Its hard enough for people with mental health problems to get jobs, without sacking them when they do. As someone who suffers from clincial depression, the stigma in interviews and employment is such that generally your options are benefits, or don't tell.

No doctor should be allowed to break patient confidentiality agreement, unless there is a clear and present risk to someone. Otherwise people will cease to seek treatement, and treatment becomes less effective as the patient will not be capable of confidence in confiding which would render treatment ineffective.

Its a fact of life, people with health problems will be found in all walks of life. The question really should be, not how do we prevent them getting the jobs, but how do we prevent their suffering in the first place.


That's a pretty insightful view of depressive illness and the potential effect on employment. Sufferers from depression are not necessarily, or indeed usually, suicidal. Doctors in England are required to report conditions that have safety implications (such as to the DVLA), but this would not normally include a moderate to severe depressive episode.

Oddly enough my third year discertation was on the stigma of mental illness in employment. The rates of unemployment among the mentally ill is staggeringly high, and a lot of people who 'have had issues' in the past, never report them, because if they do, they won't even get as far as an interview (even if they've been without an incident for years). Employers simply won't take the risk.

A Canadian study of mental health in rural areas, found that only about 18-20% of those who have had treatement, find meaningful work and careers, and of them almost all of them didn't report their illness to their superiors, with those who did working in fields related either to health or social services, where discrimination tends to be very low. Nor did they report days lost to those illnesses, choosing to select more 'acceptable' excuses such as migranes instead.

Society requires people with mental health problems to hide their condition, not just from their employers but those they work with (after all if you lied on the application, you can't just start being honest in case it gets back upstairs).

Sadly one of the most conducive means of assisting recovery of an individual, with something like depression, is being able to maintain 'a normal productive life' of which being able to work is a huge factor.

Which is generally why Doctors don't even report people to DVLA etc unless there is a very real concern - usually reported by the patient.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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bexleydave Flag Barnehurst 30 Mar 15 2.50pm Send a Private Message to bexleydave Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add bexleydave as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Mar 2015 2.35pm

Oddly enough my third year discertation was on the stigma of mental illness in employment. The rates of unemployment among the mentally ill is staggeringly high, and a lot of people who 'have had issues' in the past, never report them, because if they do, they won't even get as far as an interview (even if they've been without an incident for years). Employers simply won't take the risk.

A Canadian study of mental health in rural areas, found that only about 18-20% of those who have had treatement, find meaningful work and careers, and of them almost all of them didn't report their illness to their superiors, with those who did working in fields related either to health or social services, where discrimination tends to be very low. Nor did they report days lost to those illnesses, choosing to select more 'acceptable' excuses such as migranes instead.

Society requires people with mental health problems to hide their condition, not just from their employers but those they work with (after all if you lied on the application, you can't just start being honest in case it gets back upstairs).

Sadly one of the most conducive means of assisting recovery of an individual, with something like depression, is being able to maintain 'a normal productive life' of which being able to work is a huge factor.

Which is generally why Doctors don't even report people to DVLA etc unless there is a very real concern - usually reported by the patient.


Yes, all good points. Doctors usually only report physical rather than mental conditions that impact on safety, e.g. unexplained blackouts, uncorrectable eyesight impairment, etc.

 


Bexley Dave

Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing!

"The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)

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The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 30 Mar 15 2.56pm Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Mar 2015 2.25pm

Quote The Sash at 30 Mar 2015 1.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 27 Mar 2015 10.14pm

Lufthansa just announced that 5ft 5 overly made up girlie flight attendants must now take a place in the cockpit when one pilot needs to go for a slash in case the other pilot - 6ft bloke - is a suicidal nutter on a mission.

Definitely only flying with them from now on.

Preferable to effeminate flight attendant Gunther, who lives in a bijou little flat with Helmut, a minor TV executive and a small poodle called Fritz in the Poofenstrasse district of Wupperthal - and you know what those German lasses are like when you give them a uniform..I bet she will Irma Grese all over his sorry white arse

Saw a bit of Sky news this morning and they are talking about identifying DNA 'strands' from victims - shorthand for there isn't a lot left to identify - grim isn't even close

In fairness Gunther is probably more adept at struggling in the cockpit.

Would that be because the plane hit the ground at flight speed, where as if it broke up or lost power, it would hit at terminal velocity (450 odd mph as opposed to around 180).

It might not be as complex as that - it might just be it hit a sodding great mountain and speed doesn't really come into it. Horrible

 


As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 30 Mar 15 3.04pm

Quote The Sash at 30 Mar 2015 2.56pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Mar 2015 2.25pm

Quote The Sash at 30 Mar 2015 1.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 27 Mar 2015 10.14pm

Lufthansa just announced that 5ft 5 overly made up girlie flight attendants must now take a place in the cockpit when one pilot needs to go for a slash in case the other pilot - 6ft bloke - is a suicidal nutter on a mission.

Definitely only flying with them from now on.

Preferable to effeminate flight attendant Gunther, who lives in a bijou little flat with Helmut, a minor TV executive and a small poodle called Fritz in the Poofenstrasse district of Wupperthal - and you know what those German lasses are like when you give them a uniform..I bet she will Irma Grese all over his sorry white arse

Saw a bit of Sky news this morning and they are talking about identifying DNA 'strands' from victims - shorthand for there isn't a lot left to identify - grim isn't even close

In fairness Gunther is probably more adept at struggling in the cockpit.

Would that be because the plane hit the ground at flight speed, where as if it broke up or lost power, it would hit at terminal velocity (450 odd mph as opposed to around 180).

It might not be as complex as that - it might just be it hit a sodding great mountain and speed doesn't really come into it. Horrible

My morbid curiosity has kicked in, and so I've texted my friend, who's company specialise in Forensic retrival and have an air crash expert. Usually bombs on planes are fairly small, and a falling object generally decellerated or accellerates to around 180mph regardless of height, so a plane would hit the ground without power, if it was decending from sufficent height at around that speed.

Where as an object strikes the ground under power, it strikes with a much larger impact velocity and force (ie at the speed at which its engines are propelling it).


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 30 Mar 15 3.15pm Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Mar 2015 3.04pm

Quote The Sash at 30 Mar 2015 2.56pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Mar 2015 2.25pm

Quote The Sash at 30 Mar 2015 1.06pm

Quote Kermit8 at 27 Mar 2015 10.14pm

Lufthansa just announced that 5ft 5 overly made up girlie flight attendants must now take a place in the cockpit when one pilot needs to go for a slash in case the other pilot - 6ft bloke - is a suicidal nutter on a mission.

Definitely only flying with them from now on.

Preferable to effeminate flight attendant Gunther, who lives in a bijou little flat with Helmut, a minor TV executive and a small poodle called Fritz in the Poofenstrasse district of Wupperthal - and you know what those German lasses are like when you give them a uniform..I bet she will Irma Grese all over his sorry white arse

Saw a bit of Sky news this morning and they are talking about identifying DNA 'strands' from victims - shorthand for there isn't a lot left to identify - grim isn't even close

In fairness Gunther is probably more adept at struggling in the cockpit.

Would that be because the plane hit the ground at flight speed, where as if it broke up or lost power, it would hit at terminal velocity (450 odd mph as opposed to around 180).

It might not be as complex as that - it might just be it hit a sodding great mountain and speed doesn't really come into it. Horrible

My morbid curiosity has kicked in, and so I've texted my friend, who's company specialise in Forensic retrival and have an air crash expert. Usually bombs on planes are fairly small, and a falling object generally decellerated or accellerates to around 180mph regardless of height, so a plane would hit the ground without power, if it was decending from sufficent height at around that speed.

Where as an object strikes the ground under power, it strikes with a much larger impact velocity and force (ie at the speed at which its engines are propelling it).


Mate of mine saw a guy jump in front of a tube train, which was literally coming to a halt and saw the guy actually get torn apart - head off, limbs off etc..

If memory serves (and at my age it probably doesn't) at the inquest he had to attend as a witness the train at something like 5-10mph exerted a ridiculous figure (300 tones of force rings a bell) behind it ...so f*** knows what a plane at any speed must be like.


 


As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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ParchmoreEagle Flag Belair 31 Mar 15 2.41am

This case looks to me that it will be about mental health compounded by stress. I want to give this fellow who did this some margin of grace: trying to work a career as a pilot is highly stressful, low paid, with huge demands and expectations, with only the best recruits making it. That's no excuse to murder yourself and 150 others, but it appears this guy was secretly suffering a mental illness ON TOP of all these pressures. My first response was anger at what he had done, but maybe he was very ill, and the 'system' did not allow him to get treatment for this, as any sniff of mental illness or weakness would have killed his career. So, the issue may turn out to be, how can airlines ensure that someone suffering from any sort of incapacitating illness will never find themselves in control of people's lives. Whatever the truth, I currently feel as sad for this man as for his victims.

 


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cornwalls palace Flag Torpoint 31 Mar 15 10.06pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Mar 2015 12.56pm

Quote cornwalls palace at 28 Mar 2015 1.32am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 27 Mar 2015 3.21pm

Quote cornwalls palace at 27 Mar 2015 1.11pm

..so in 2009 he was diagnosed with a “severe depressive episode”


You'd be amazed how many people in high stress jobs may have experienced severe depressive episodes. Can't go around sacking them all off, 1 in 5 people suffer from a severe depressive episode requiring medical intervention at least once in their life time.

I'd be more worried about pilots who have 'alcohol problems', having been around AA as a kid my dad seemed to know an awful lot of pilots that only had names like 'Jim the Pilot'.


..probably a lot more! it just seems strange that they knew he had an episode in 2009 and allowed him to continue, surely that should of been the end of his flying days, or did he manage to hide that too! if he did then fair enough and there is nothing anyone can do at this moment in time, but Doctors need to be allowed or told to inform particular bodies of employment of their clients state of mind or health especially in situations where the doctor knows the clients involvement involves other peoples well being....it's just common sense.

Thing is, why should it end his career because he had an episode in 2009. Wouldn't that just encourage people not to report it, or seek treatment. Shouldn't we, as a society, be more compassionate to people who are sick, and rather than punish them for being sick actively come togeather to support them. Surely the most that should ever happen is someone is given an extended sick leave, full pay, until they can resume or offered some form of retirement package.

Its hard enough for people with mental health problems to get jobs, without sacking them when they do. As someone who suffers from clincial depression, the stigma in interviews and employment is such that generally your options are benefits, or don't tell.

No doctor should be allowed to break patient confidentiality agreement, unless there is a clear and present risk to someone. Otherwise people will cease to seek treatement, and treatment becomes less effective as the patient will not be capable of confidence in confiding which would render treatment ineffective.

Its a fact of life, people with health problems will be found in all walks of life. The question really should be, not how do we prevent them getting the jobs, but how do we prevent their suffering in the first place.


.. I have type 1 Diabetes and every time my sugar levels go below 3 I suffer with bad depression it's how I know I'm low! (it's the same feeling I get when I see bexleydaves name now and he couldn't help but jump on your response to me!, sad git) but there is now talk of a fair few planes that could have possibly fallen victim to this sort of end ...it's a catch 22 really isn't it! obviously I understand everything you said and of course you're absolutely right.

 


.......has our coach driver done a Poo'yet, without thinking about Gus!

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 01 Apr 15 9.39am

Quote cornwalls palace at 31 Mar 2015 10.06pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Mar 2015 12.56pm

Quote cornwalls palace at 28 Mar 2015 1.32am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 27 Mar 2015 3.21pm

Quote cornwalls palace at 27 Mar 2015 1.11pm

..so in 2009 he was diagnosed with a “severe depressive episode”


You'd be amazed how many people in high stress jobs may have experienced severe depressive episodes. Can't go around sacking them all off, 1 in 5 people suffer from a severe depressive episode requiring medical intervention at least once in their life time.

I'd be more worried about pilots who have 'alcohol problems', having been around AA as a kid my dad seemed to know an awful lot of pilots that only had names like 'Jim the Pilot'.


..probably a lot more! it just seems strange that they knew he had an episode in 2009 and allowed him to continue, surely that should of been the end of his flying days, or did he manage to hide that too! if he did then fair enough and there is nothing anyone can do at this moment in time, but Doctors need to be allowed or told to inform particular bodies of employment of their clients state of mind or health especially in situations where the doctor knows the clients involvement involves other peoples well being....it's just common sense.

Thing is, why should it end his career because he had an episode in 2009. Wouldn't that just encourage people not to report it, or seek treatment. Shouldn't we, as a society, be more compassionate to people who are sick, and rather than punish them for being sick actively come togeather to support them. Surely the most that should ever happen is someone is given an extended sick leave, full pay, until they can resume or offered some form of retirement package.

Its hard enough for people with mental health problems to get jobs, without sacking them when they do. As someone who suffers from clincial depression, the stigma in interviews and employment is such that generally your options are benefits, or don't tell.

No doctor should be allowed to break patient confidentiality agreement, unless there is a clear and present risk to someone. Otherwise people will cease to seek treatement, and treatment becomes less effective as the patient will not be capable of confidence in confiding which would render treatment ineffective.

Its a fact of life, people with health problems will be found in all walks of life. The question really should be, not how do we prevent them getting the jobs, but how do we prevent their suffering in the first place.


.. I have type 1 Diabetes and every time my sugar levels go below 3 I suffer with bad depression it's how I know I'm low! (it's the same feeling I get when I see bexleydaves name now and he couldn't help but jump on your response to me!, sad git) but there is now talk of a fair few planes that could have possibly fallen victim to this sort of end ...it's a catch 22 really isn't it! obviously I understand everything you said and of course you're absolutely right.

Technically thats a different kind of depression than I suffer, as I'm not aware that I'm depressed (although I have taught myself how to recognise certain behaviours that are linked with me becoming depressed) - but yeah ideally people should come forward with medical problems at work that are dangerous, but they don't because the consequences to them typically are prohibitive, so they tend to just convince themselves its ok not to, and the problems build up. The guy was seeing a psychiatrist(s) but wasn't 'able' to take prescribed medication because it would show up in a drug test, and likely as not he'd lose his job.

The ultimate outcome is that in the end 150 people died - usually its just the one.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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