It does make me laugh that people can watch their tournament predictions fail, be proved wrong over and over again, and still come out of it insisting they’re right.

Maybe if we win it there would be some self-reflection, but I doubt it.

So Gareth Southgate fancy’s a week off before we play San Marino at Wembley, the FA run a competition for anyone to enter, bill the plumber wins and gets to manage England for a week, will San Marino then beat us?

It’s extreme I know, but just so you get my point as you only highlighted part of my post

Edited by monkey (12 Jul 2024 12.42pm)

Unless we assume that Southgate's cunning plan was to merely squeeze past far inferior opposition, score a last minute overhead kick to keep us in the tournament against (bleeding) Slovenia and beat another team with very arguably a weaker squad on penalties, getting very few efforts in on goal despite the wealth of talent we have available along the way, there's certainly room for critique, surely?

One prediction for the tournament, within a few circles beyond just 'England fans', was that we were favourites. This was off the back of the squad we have and the level at which our players compete and perform, not blind ignorance or optimism.

The performances of England have however failed to reflect the very legitimate optimism and perhaps expectation of many, albeit the results have worked out perfectly. This squad is far superior to any I can remember going back and there is an element of 'luck' or serendipity in where we find ourselves now.

The suggestion that a world class group of players, with a bit of luck, has managed to stumble through to the final in spite of a pretty average manager has more weight than suggesting it was all planned, orchestrated and executed by a tactical genius. I'd argue so anyway and haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.

I'm minded not to go too far to an extreme with either of those stances and just enjoy where we are right now. I feel like we can certainly beat the Spanish but I'm not relying on a 'Southgate masterclass' to be the decisive factor, I'm more looking toward the players in the team and a bit of luck on our side.

If Southgate comes out at some point in the future and says 'this was my plan all along etc.' and is able to very specifically outline why things have played out as they have, I'd very much claim complete ignorance and hail him a genius. I highly doubt that though.

Come on England!

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

Good post, sums up how I and nearly everyone I talk to feels. Where I would give Southgate credit is the squad harmony and culture. Although it may not be my kind of thing, it seems to work well for the players. He seems to be able to keep them buying in well enough. Maybe that is one thing that England needed. It was a good call to send Grealish home by the looks of things. However, as you say, playing a left wing back system and only picking an injured left wing back is completely unforgivable - unless we win, of course, and then Gareth will be the Messiah.

Red and Blue Army!

Leaving aside any personal opinions of him which other England managers have done better? Obviously Ramsey won the World Cup but there was no qualification and football was a different game in the Sixties. Who else? Venables, Sven, Capello, Robson, Greenwood, Hoddle and others don't really stand comparison in terms of tournament performances. Whatever anyone thinks of his style his record speaks for itself.

All of those managers went out to the best teams in the world earlier in the tournament, or semi finals in 2 cases. If Bellingham didn’t score an overhead kick versus Slovakia in round 2 he’d have resigned or been asked to. Southgate has had the easiest routes through not just this tournament but every tournament. The team spirit and perseverance has been excellent, but he’s not fooling everyone with the intelligent analysis. Maybe we’ll miss Kalvin Phillips again on Sunday? Or will it be Maguire he kept playing leading up to the tournament? Remember Mainoo was the 3rd and probably last midfielder he was willing to ‘experiment’ with next to Rice.

COYP