Euro 2024
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 silvertop  Portishead 25 Jun 24 11.12am |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I don't really think there is - the squads in WC 18 and Euro 2020 were nowhere near as stacked as we are now and I think it's based on a lot of selective hindsight to suggest we had any sort of 'super squad' in those days. Bellingham, Foden and Saka are all amongst the best in the world in their positions currently, as are Kane, Stones, Walker and Rice... that was nothing like the case in 2018 or 2020. The 2018 team had Walker, Stones, Kane and Sterling who were top-level players. The rest of the team was Henderson, Maguire, Trippier, Lingard, Ashley Young, Dele and Pickford. 2020 was stronger but still not as good on paper as the German side we beat, nor the Croatians. Yes, and remember Ericson and probably the best midfield on the planet. I don't recall them progressing that far. Actually, on Swedish former managers, he thought the 22 squad was a lot deeper than he had. He reckoned you could take one out, put the "back-up" in and not notice any difference. I am not sure he's right now, especially at left back. Also, I think there are better squads on paper this time, especially Spain who played Albania and still walked the win after making 10 changes to the team that also walked through Italy.
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 EverybodyDannsNow SE19 25 Jun 24 11.13am |
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Originally posted by CrazyBadger
True, but history without context is just statistics. And statistics can mislead to teach the wrong lesson. We haven't improved since the last tournament as all Southgate/FA have seen is (relative) success and continued doing the same. Now GS has seen this as his last tournament and named a bold, risky squad with only 1 plan. It isn't working (yet?), and he has no solution for it (again).
The context is we had a very average squad in 2018, were coming off the back of one of the biggest embarrassments in our history in 2016, and we got to a semi-final for the first time in 30 years, narrowly losing to a super-squad. We then built on that impressive tournament by reaching the Euro finals for the first time ever 2 years later - we beat world cup finalists Croatia, thumped Germany for our first KO win over them in 50+ years, and then were within a penalty shootout of winning the tournament. No amount of revisionism is going to convince me that none of that is worthy of credit, nor that it was all to be expected at the time. I think the bits in bold are very fair criticisms.
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 25 Jun 24 11.17am |
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Originally posted by silvertop
Yes, and remember Ericson and probably the best midfield on the planet. I don't recall them progressing that far. Actually, on Swedish former managers, he thought the 22 squad was a lot deeper than he had. He reckoned you could take one out, put the "back-up" in and not notice any difference. I am not sure he's right now, especially at left back. Also, I think there are better squads on paper this time, especially Spain who played Albania and still walked the win after making 10 changes to the team that also walked through Italy. In terms of player quality, there was a genuine golden generation around 2004-2008, and we are certainly in another now, but the periods in between were pretty average.
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Nicholas91  The Democratic Republic of Kent 25 Jun 24 11.24am |
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Originally posted by silvertop
That would be the semi final. I appreciate I am a lone voice thinking this is all part of a wider plan, but some say that betting companies usually know. Betfred have a special Euros deal whereby (up to 3rd July) they will take any bet for England to win the tournament at 100-1. That is not resounding support for either England or my opinion! I think you are a lone voice but it's a stance I rather welcome ST, better to believe in something as opposed to nothing!
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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| dreamwaverider London 25 Jun 24 11.25am |
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Southgate made the decision to bring in some very exciting youngsters. We are through the first round already. Gareth should now go with his gut and use some of those youngsters tonight. Wharton, Palmer and Gordon are ripe for a game. Bellingham as always and Watkins up front. Rest Kane and Saka. Let's see what these boys can do. More likely though, he will stick to his boring plan of yesterday and put Gallagher in instead of Trent, with no other changes. Edited by dreamwaverider (25 Jun 2024 11.27am)
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| Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 25 Jun 24 11.41am |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I don't really think there is - the squads in WC 18 and Euro 2020 were nowhere near as stacked as we are now and I think it's based on a lot of selective hindsight to suggest we had any sort of 'super squad' in those days. Bellingham, Foden and Saka are all amongst the best in the world in their positions currently, as are Kane, Stones, Walker and Rice... that was nothing like the case in 2018 or 2020. The 2018 team had Walker, Stones, Kane and Sterling who were top-level players. The rest of the team was Henderson, Maguire, Trippier, Lingard, Ashley Young, Dele and Pickford. 2020 was stronger but still not as good on paper as the German side we beat, nor the Croatians. World Cup 2018 - We beat Tunisia, Panama, Sweden and Colombia (only on pens) with a superior team. We lost twice to Belgium (without scoring) and then to Croatia. Euro 2020 - We did beat Germany and Croatia, fair play, but lost to an Italy side not comparable to years past in the final. I'd say our team was not overtly but very possibly superior to Germany and Croatia's too. I would say it was easily arguable to claim it better than Denmark, Ukraine, Czechia and Scotland's (draw) however. Perhaps this is just fine margins/luck in some instances but I still couldn't tell you Gareth's managerial style or what he does for the team beyond creating a 'nice atmosphere'... apparently? You therefore have to conclude that with the 'stacked' team we have now, it could very easily be considered an opportunity missed when we employ a manager without any distinguishing feature, attributes or contribution? That's assuming we get nothing this time round. I'll follow silvertops perspective for now...
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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| kevlee born Wandsworth emigrated to Lanc... 25 Jun 24 11.51am |
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Originally posted by dreamwaverider
Southgate made the decision to bring in some very exciting youngsters. We are through the first round already. Gareth should now go with his gut and use some of those youngsters tonight. Wharton, Palmer and Gordon are ripe for a game. Bellingham as always and Watkins up front. Rest Kane and Saka. Let's see what these boys can do. More likely though, he will stick to his boring plan of yesterday and put Gallagher in instead of Trent, with no other changes. Edited by dreamwaverider (25 Jun 2024 11.27am) The biggest joke is when he blamed the midfield fiasco on not having a natural replacement for Kelvin Phillips!! Are you having a laugh Southgate?! He is crap! plus you every ex-playing pundit screaming for Adam Wharton.
Following Palace since 25 Feb 1978 |
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| CrazyBadger Ware 25 Jun 24 11.57am |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
The context is we had a very average squad in 2018, were coming off the back of one of the biggest embarrassments in our history in 2016, and we got to a semi-final for the first time in 30 years, narrowly losing to a super-squad. We then built on that impressive tournament by reaching the Euro finals for the first time ever 2 years later - we beat world cup finalists Croatia, thumped Germany for our first KO win over them in 50+ years, and then were within a penalty shootout of winning the tournament. No amount of revisionism is going to convince me that none of that is worthy of credit, nor that it was all to be expected at the time. I think the bits in bold are very fair criticisms. you and me remember those 2 tournaments very differently. 2018 - agree, after the calmity of 2016, where all england fans had 'given up' on england, This was an incredibly successful tournament. Raw, young, hungry and free from media expectation. 2020 - eased out of the group past some 2nd class opposition except a dreadful 0-0 bore draw vs scotland. Beat an unusually rubbish Germany who scraped out of their group. 2022 - more of the same, just more extreme. cruised past 2nd rate oppo until France. Noone expected a win, but again on the course of the game, eminently winnable. especially after getting it back to 1-1. You see 2 successes, I see 2 (at least) massively missed opportunities.
"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one" |
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| Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 25 Jun 24 12.20pm |
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Originally posted by CrazyBadger
you and me remember those 2 tournaments very differently. 2018 - agree, after the calmity of 2016, where all england fans had 'given up' on england, This was an incredibly successful tournament. Raw, young, hungry and free from media expectation. 2020 - eased out of the group past some 2nd class opposition except a dreadful 0-0 bore draw vs scotland. Beat an unusually rubbish Germany who scraped out of their group. 2022 - more of the same, just more extreme. cruised past 2nd rate oppo until France. Noone expected a win, but again on the course of the game, eminently winnable. especially after getting it back to 1-1. You see 2 successes, I see 2 (at least) massively missed opportunities. I share the same memories. Not to say it's the 'right' perspective of course however it is mine.
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 25 Jun 24 12.20pm |
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
World Cup 2018 - We beat Tunisia, Panama, Sweden and Colombia (only on pens) with a superior team. We lost twice to Belgium (without scoring) and then to Croatia. Euro 2020 - We did beat Germany and Croatia, fair play, but lost to an Italy side not comparable to years past in the final. I'd say our team was not overtly but very possibly superior to Germany and Croatia's too. I would say it was easily arguable to claim it better than Denmark, Ukraine, Czechia and Scotland's (draw) however. Perhaps this is just fine margins/luck in some instances but I still couldn't tell you Gareth's managerial style or what he does for the team beyond creating a 'nice atmosphere'... apparently? You therefore have to conclude that with the 'stacked' team we have now, it could very easily be considered an opportunity missed when we employ a manager without any distinguishing feature, attributes or contribution? That's assuming we get nothing this time round. I'll follow silvertops perspective for now... Just have to agree to disagree on the previous tournaments - I find it incredibly hard to agree with an analysis which considers our 2020 squad superior to Germany or Croatia, and I think that's based very much on hindsight - no one was expecting Leeds' Kavlin Phillips and West Ham's Declan Rice to outperform Kroos & Gundogan or Modric & Rakitic. Southgate's style is clearly to a be a solid, low-risk team who are good in transitions and counter attack well - that's been the case in all of the last 3 tournaments and evidenced by our defensive record across that time. As I said earlier, I agree that he feels/looks less sure of a system this time round, but criticism that suggests he just has no ideas or contributions to make as a manager doesn't seem fair.
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| Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 25 Jun 24 12.45pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Just have to agree to disagree on the previous tournaments - I find it incredibly hard to agree with an analysis which considers our 2020 squad superior to Germany or Croatia, and I think that's based very much on hindsight - no one was expecting Leeds' Kavlin Phillips and West Ham's Declan Rice to outperform Kroos & Gundogan or Modric & Rakitic. Southgate's style is clearly to a be a solid, low-risk team who are good in transitions and counter attack well - that's been the case in all of the last 3 tournaments and evidenced by our defensive record across that time. As I said earlier, I agree that he feels/looks less sure of a system this time round, but criticism that suggests he just has no ideas or contributions to make as a manager doesn't seem fair. I'm happy to disagree EDN, I don't want to argue this to the death nor am I asserting that I am absolutely correct, it's just my take on things. With regards to Southgate's style, that does ring somewhat true to me so thank you for the observation but I'd off the cuff suggest there's far more missing from that then there is present. Again, see above however. Edit: Thought I'd also add that the Germany game, even with Muller's spectacular drag the right side of the post for us, was the one game where I 'believed'. They had a superior midfield of course but I'd argue there was balance between the two XI's. I thought we were marvellous that day but again, only my opinion, it felt more 'stars aligning/momentum with us' than it did 'tactical masterclass from the manager'.
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 25 Jun 24 12.48pm |
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Originally posted by CrazyBadger
you and me remember those 2 tournaments very differently. 2018 - agree, after the calmity of 2016, where all england fans had 'given up' on england, This was an incredibly successful tournament. Raw, young, hungry and free from media expectation. 2020 - eased out of the group past some 2nd class opposition except a dreadful 0-0 bore draw vs scotland. Beat an unusually rubbish Germany who scraped out of their group. 2022 - more of the same, just more extreme. cruised past 2nd rate oppo until France. Noone expected a win, but again on the course of the game, eminently winnable. especially after getting it back to 1-1. You see 2 successes, I see 2 (at least) massively missed opportunities. Successful if you consider context... wholly disappointing if you just assume we should win every game. We could have beaten Man Utd in the cup final in 2016 - I don't know how many Palace fans view that campaign as 'wholly disappointing' because we came up a little short, but I'd imagine it's not many. Regardless, I don't think there's much value in more back and forth on it - clearly the most successful manager we've had in 50+ years will forever be considered s*** by many. Unless we won a penalty shootout obviously. That would make him a great.
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