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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 12 Oct 22 5.57pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays The two things that Trump had in his favour were unpredictability and a relatively good relationship with Putin. Putin was taking about war over Ukraine due to US involvement nearly ten years ago. Personally I'm of the view that the only reason it happened this year is because you have Biden in power and the disaster of the Afghanistan withdrawn probably cemented that decision. True. But to my point Putin would have worked him out eventually anyway. So for me it's irrelevant, plus Trump would simply get more and more aggressive to save face so I'm glad we've avoided that. I'm not sure we can say definitively that he had a good relationship with him. Define good. More like Putin as you say had no idea what to make of him so simply decided to be patient and work him out. I can't seriously believe that he'd put all his plans on hold because he had a 'good relationship' with Trump. Non starter Also... the Afghan withdrawal was going to happen with Trump. So again, I don't see that being specifically Biden related. It would have had the same outcome. Timings might have been different but we'd be in more or less the same situation. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 12 Oct 22 5.57pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The two things that Trump had in his favour were unpredictability and a relatively good relationship with Putin.

Putin was taking about war over Ukraine due to US involvement nearly ten years ago. Personally I'm of the view that the only reason it happened this year is because you have Biden in power and the disaster of the Afghanistan withdrawn probably cemented that decision.

True. But to my point Putin would have worked him out eventually anyway. So for me it's irrelevant, plus Trump would simply get more and more aggressive to save face so I'm glad we've avoided that.

I'm not sure we can say definitively that he had a good relationship with him. Define good. More like Putin as you say had no idea what to make of him so simply decided to be patient and work him out. I can't seriously believe that he'd put all his plans on hold because he had a 'good relationship' with Trump. Non starter

Also... the Afghan withdrawal was going to happen with Trump. So again, I don't see that being specifically Biden related. It would have had the same outcome.

Timings might have been different but we'd be in more or less the same situation.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Stirlingsays 12 Oct 22 7.55pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC True. But to my point Putin would have worked him out eventually anyway. So for me it's irrelevant, plus Trump would simply get more and more aggressive to save face so I'm glad we've avoided that. I'm not sure we can say definitively that he had a good relationship with him. Define good. More like Putin as you say had no idea what to make of him so simply decided to be patient and work him out. I can't seriously believe that he'd put all his plans on hold because he had a 'good relationship' with Trump. Non starter Also... the Afghan withdrawal was going to happen with Trump. So again, I don't see that being specifically Biden related. It would have had the same outcome. Timings might have been different but we'd be in more or less the same situation. Relationships matter and I don't think a genuine unpredictability can be 'worked out'. Trump likes autocrats and personally I don't think we would have a cold war on our hands with two overt world systems like now. I don't see it....While the leader is a figurehead, the actual relationships do matter....The Saudis liked Trump, but the other day they cut production by two million barrels a day to side with Russia....Again, I see a Trump figure as someone they understood far more than Biden and the Democrats. As for Afghanistan, Trump is prideful and I don't accept that he would have stood for leaving tens of billions of equipment to the Taliban as he ran....that was a botch of the highest order. So we will just have to disagree. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 7.59pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Oct 22 7.55pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

True. But to my point Putin would have worked him out eventually anyway. So for me it's irrelevant, plus Trump would simply get more and more aggressive to save face so I'm glad we've avoided that.

Also... the Afghan withdrawal was going to happen with Trump. So again, I don't see that being specifically Biden related. It would have had the same outcome.

Timings might have been different but we'd be in more or less the same situation.

Relationships matter and I don't think a genuine unpredictability can be 'worked out'. Trump likes autocrats and personally I don't think we would have a cold war on our hands with two overt world systems like now. I don't see it....While the leader is a figurehead, the actual relationships do matter....The Saudis liked Trump, but the other day they cut production by two million barrels a day to side with Russia....Again, I see a Trump figure as someone they understood far more than Biden and the Democrats.

As for Afghanistan, Trump is prideful and I don't accept that he would have stood for leaving tens of billions of equipment to the Taliban as he ran....that was a botch of the highest order. So we will just have to disagree.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 7.59pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 12 Oct 22 8.09pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Relationships matter and I don't think a genuine unpredictability can be 'worked out'. Trump likes autocrats and personally I don't think we would have a cold war on our hands with two overt world systems like now. I don't see it....While the leader is a figurehead, the actual relationships do matter....The Saudis liked Trump, but the other day they cut production by two million barrels a day to side with Russia....Again, I see a Trump figure as someone they understood far more than Biden and the Democrats. As for Afghanistan, Trump is prideful and I don't accept that he would have stood for leaving tens of billions of equipment to the Taliban as he ran....that was a botch of the highest order. So we will just have to disagree. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 7.59pm) He might not have left (destroyed) equipment, but at what cost to bring it all back, and to where? Anyway that's a side point – the main point is he still would have left and that would still have created the same issues. Possibly even meeting and therefore legitimising the taliban as an alternative. No thanks. The Saudis may or may not have 'liked trump', but ultimately they have their own agenda which increasingly is one of self determination after years of cowering under Americas shadow. Maybe that might have been delayed but I can't see how it would have been discarded simply because burger boy was a curiosity. North Korea were well on the way to working him out so I disagree on that one. Also understanding or not, these leaders would not simply ditch their own personal agendas to kowtow to trump. Wouldn't happen. Eventually either he'd get bored, say or do something stupid or they'd decide to push him and see what happened. He is and was not a cure to the worlds ills. Being attractive to dictators is not a good thing. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 12 Oct 22 8.09pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 7.59pm)

He might not have left (destroyed) equipment, but at what cost to bring it all back, and to where? Anyway that's a side point – the main point is he still would have left and that would still have created the same issues. Possibly even meeting and therefore legitimising the taliban as an alternative. No thanks.

The Saudis may or may not have 'liked trump', but ultimately they have their own agenda which increasingly is one of self determination after years of cowering under Americas shadow. Maybe that might have been delayed but I can't see how it would have been discarded simply because burger boy was a curiosity.

North Korea were well on the way to working him out so I disagree on that one. Also understanding or not, these leaders would not simply ditch their own personal agendas to kowtow to trump. Wouldn't happen. Eventually either he'd get bored, say or do something stupid or they'd decide to push him and see what happened.

He is and was not a cure to the worlds ills. Being attractive to dictators is not a good thing.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Stirlingsays 12 Oct 22 8.20pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC He might not have left (destroyed) equipment, but at what cost to bring it all back, and to where? Anyway that's a side point – the main point is he still would have left and that would still have created the same issues. Possibly even meeting and therefore legitimising the taliban as an alternative. No thanks. The Saudis may or may not have 'liked trump', but ultimately they have their own agenda which increasingly is one of self determination after years of cowering under Americas shadow. Maybe that might have been delayed but I can't see how it would have been discarded simply because burger boy was a curiosity. North Korea were well on the way to working him out so I disagree on that one. Also understanding or not, these leaders would not simply ditch their own personal agendas to kowtow to trump. Wouldn't happen. Eventually either he'd get bored, say or do something stupid or they'd decide to push him and see what happened. He is and was not a cure to the worlds ills. Being attractive to dictators is not a good thing. I disagree, I think being attractive to dictators is a very good thing. If that weren't the case Stalin and Roosevelt wouldn't have got on and history would be different....Mmmm...never mind. So you think this cold war was unavoidable? While I think US state department policy has been leading us down this direction for years I think the relationship Trump had with Putin would have meant that talks with Putin were possible before this and I definitely think the escalation to a cold war was avoidable. Trump has been saying that he's open to talking to Putin for some time. People like Musk and Peterson have been talking sense on negotiation for a while but instead we have a proxy war where the US get to use Ukrainian bodies to fight Russia instead of their own.....it's on the cheap for them. In my view the reality is that a large part of the US state apparatus has wanted this for some time for several reasons. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 8.22pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Oct 22 8.20pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

He is and was not a cure to the worlds ills. Being attractive to dictators is not a good thing.

I disagree, I think being attractive to dictators is a very good thing. If that weren't the case Stalin and Roosevelt wouldn't have got on and history would be different....Mmmm...never mind.

So you think this cold war was unavoidable?

While I think US state department policy has been leading us down this direction for years I think the relationship Trump had with Putin would have meant that talks with Putin were possible before this and I definitely think the escalation to a cold war was avoidable.

Trump has been saying that he's open to talking to Putin for some time. People like Musk and Peterson have been talking sense on negotiation for a while but instead we have a proxy war where the US get to use Ukrainian bodies to fight Russia instead of their own.....it's on the cheap for them.

In my view the reality is that a large part of the US state apparatus has wanted this for some time for several reasons.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 8.22pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Ouzo Dan Behind you 13 Oct 22 2.28pm
Biden goes cap in hand to Saudi Arabia asking if they will defer reduction in oil production until after the mid terms, Saudi refuse, Biden publically states there will be a retaliation & refuses to rule out blocking of Saudi weapons unless he gets his way... Quid pro Joe... The mountains are calling & I must go.
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Ouzo Dan

Behind you 13 Oct 22 2.28pm

Biden goes cap in hand to Saudi Arabia asking if they will defer reduction in oil production until after the mid terms, Saudi refuse, Biden publically states there will be a retaliation & refuses to rule out blocking of Saudi weapons unless he gets his way...

Quid pro Joe...

The mountains are calling & I must go.

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 13 Oct 22 4.20pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I disagree, I think being attractive to dictators is a very good thing. If that weren't the case Stalin and Roosevelt wouldn't have got on and history would be different....Mmmm...never mind. So you think this cold war was unavoidable? While I think US state department policy has been leading us down this direction for years I think the relationship Trump had with Putin would have meant that talks with Putin were possible before this and I definitely think the escalation to a cold war was avoidable. Trump has been saying that he's open to talking to Putin for some time. People like Musk and Peterson have been talking sense on negotiation for a while but instead we have a proxy war where the US get to use Ukrainian bodies to fight Russia instead of their own.....it's on the cheap for them. In my view the reality is that a large part of the US state apparatus has wanted this for some time for several reasons. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 8.22pm) I think it's fanciful to suggest that just because trump might have been able to get his foot in the door with Putin, and that's a big if (meaningfully) he'd change his overall aims, agenda and personality. There's only one way this goes with Putin in charge, and aging. Circumstances dictate the speed, but it's the same road until he croaks. I'd agree that the US want Putin out, sure. Whether they wanted it to come about in this way is up for debate. In some ways I'd be interested to see how Trump would handle this as a contrast, but my prediction is that it would start well and end badly. Negotiation is of course agreeable, but you have to offer concessions... and it's not up to the US to concede Ukranian territory. Even if they pushed Ukraine to do so can you really see them agreeing to it? I can't. It's not as simple as you're making out – negotiate and all is well. So complex and would require some serious benefits being handed over to Russia which in an fluxing world power struggle between US, China and Russia would, in my opinion, be political suicide. It would also lead to reduced influence on the world stage... it's a very fine line. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 13 Oct 22 4.20pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I disagree, I think being attractive to dictators is a very good thing. If that weren't the case Stalin and Roosevelt wouldn't have got on and history would be different....Mmmm...never mind.

So you think this cold war was unavoidable?

In my view the reality is that a large part of the US state apparatus has wanted this for some time for several reasons.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 8.22pm)

I think it's fanciful to suggest that just because trump might have been able to get his foot in the door with Putin, and that's a big if (meaningfully) he'd change his overall aims, agenda and personality. There's only one way this goes with Putin in charge, and aging. Circumstances dictate the speed, but it's the same road until he croaks.

I'd agree that the US want Putin out, sure. Whether they wanted it to come about in this way is up for debate. In some ways I'd be interested to see how Trump would handle this as a contrast, but my prediction is that it would start well and end badly.

Negotiation is of course agreeable, but you have to offer concessions... and it's not up to the US to concede Ukranian territory. Even if they pushed Ukraine to do so can you really see them agreeing to it? I can't. It's not as simple as you're making out – negotiate and all is well. So complex and would require some serious benefits being handed over to Russia which in an fluxing world power struggle between US, China and Russia would, in my opinion, be political suicide. It would also lead to reduced influence on the world stage... it's a very fine line.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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The Dolphin 14 Oct 22 7.31am
On the whole I believe that if Trump was still the President, then the war in Ukraine would not have started. Just my thoughts with no real facts to back that up. He had more about him - one way or another - than the whole of the current administration who on the face of it are as clueless as our lot over here right now!
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The Dolphin

14 Oct 22 7.31am

On the whole I believe that if Trump was still the President, then the war in Ukraine would not have started.
Just my thoughts with no real facts to back that up.
He had more about him - one way or another - than the whole of the current administration who on the face of it are as clueless as our lot over here right now!

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Maine Eagle USA 16 Oct 22 11.26am
I really hope Trump runs in 2024! He is less popular now than when he single handedly lost the senate and White House 2 years ago. Lol. Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.
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Maine Eagle

USA 16 Oct 22 11.26am

I really hope Trump runs in 2024!

He is less popular now than when he single handedly lost the senate and White House 2 years ago. Lol.

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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cryrst The garden of England 16 Oct 22 2.23pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle I really hope Trump runs in 2024! He is less popular now than when he single handedly lost the senate and White House 2 years ago. Lol. He would be if you only ask democrats
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cryrst

The garden of England 16 Oct 22 2.23pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

I really hope Trump runs in 2024!

He is less popular now than when he single handedly lost the senate and White House 2 years ago. Lol.

He would be if you only ask democrats

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croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 16 Oct 22 4.19pm
Originally posted by The Dolphin On the whole I believe that if Trump was still the President, then the war in Ukraine would not have started. Just my thoughts with no real facts to back that up. He had more about him - one way or another - than the whole of the current administration who on the face of it are as clueless as our lot over here right now! Not quite as clueless- Biden today pointed out he told lizzy dripping that trickle down wouldn"t work- pity she didn"t listen!
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croydon proud

Any european country i fancy! 16 Oct 22 4.19pm

Originally posted by The Dolphin

Not quite as clueless- Biden today pointed out he told lizzy dripping that trickle down wouldn"t work- pity she didn"t listen!

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Stirlingsays 16 Oct 22 5.04pm
Originally posted by croydon proud Not quite as clueless- Biden today pointed out he told lizzy dripping that trickle down wouldn"t work- pity she didn"t listen! Yeah, because Biden knows all about making good economic decisions. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

16 Oct 22 5.04pm

Originally posted by croydon proud

Not quite as clueless- Biden today pointed out he told lizzy dripping that trickle down wouldn"t work- pity she didn"t listen!

Yeah, because Biden knows all about making good economic decisions.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 16 Oct 22 5.12pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Yeah, because Biden knows all about making good economic decisions. That was a £65-£300 billion call he got right- pity the british pm knew better!
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croydon proud

Any european country i fancy! 16 Oct 22 5.12pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yeah, because Biden knows all about making good economic decisions.

That was a £65-£300 billion call he got right- pity the british pm knew better!

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