This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
having your cake and eating it
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In
carlonoil  Naples 26 Oct 16 7.35pm |
|
|---|---|
|
So Ashers Bakery lose their appeal over the 'gay cake'. Even Peter Tatchell accepts that this an appaling ruling. This verdict is a defeat for freedom of expression. As well as meaning that Ashers can be legally forced to aid the promotion of same-sex marriage against their wishes, it also implies that gay bakers could be forced by law to decorate cakes with homophobic slogans. It seems the judges have decided that businesses cannot lawfully refuse a customer’s request to propagate a message, even if it is sexist, xenophobic or anti-gay and even if the business owners have a conscientious objection to it. Although I strongly disagree with Ashers’ opposition to marriage equality, in a free society neither they nor anyone else should be compelled to facilitate a political idea they oppose.
|
|
 Alert a moderator to this post |
 |
| OhthisbloodyPC 27 Oct 16 1.12am |
|
|---|---|
|
There's always a few hooligans that give the majority a bad name. This seems to be true of the gay community. I bet these cake activists have got fake business cards made up, which they give out to victims, saying something like "Congratulations, you have met the Intercity Offence Taking Firm"
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| bubble wrap Carparks in South East London 27 Oct 16 10.39am |
|
|---|---|
|
Bunch of Masterbakers
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Oct 16 11.19am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by carlonoil
So Ashers Bakery lose their appeal over the 'gay cake'. Even Peter Tatchell accepts that this an appaling ruling. This verdict is a defeat for freedom of expression. As well as meaning that Ashers can be legally forced to aid the promotion of same-sex marriage against their wishes, it also implies that gay bakers could be forced by law to decorate cakes with homophobic slogans. It seems the judges have decided that businesses cannot lawfully refuse a customer’s request to propagate a message, even if it is sexist, xenophobic or anti-gay and even if the business owners have a conscientious objection to it. Although I strongly disagree with Ashers’ opposition to marriage equality, in a free society neither they nor anyone else should be compelled to facilitate a political idea they oppose. Actually its irrelevant, they broke the laws of contract, that specifically prohibit businesses from discrimination against customers on grounds of gender, sexuality, race or religion. A business, that caters to the public, is bound by legal requirements that prohibit it from discrimination in its provision of service. Irrespective of their beliefs of employees and owners. Whilst a business can refuse to accept 'political messages etc' it must be across the board (it cannot discriminate on personally held views). In specifically refusing service on the basis of the message being about gay marriage, to a person who was gay, the case was on a hiding to nothing. Especially given it had accepted payment for the order and then decided to reject it. Has the business specifically touted itself as a Religious outlet, catering to a specific religious group (such a Plymouth Brethren), then it might have had a case (as its revenue is specifically tied to that faith and its beliefs). However it isn't, its a common garden community bakery that caters to the community in general, and as such is bound by the discrimination act. Freedom of Expression and Speech only refer to the capacity for protection from the state, it doesn't exclude you from the application of laws that apply to everyone (hence Freedom of Speech doesn't protect from incitement crimes or shouting fire in a crowded cinema). In no way does this decision mean you can't refuse to print homophobic or anti-religious messages (they would fall under the Equality acts). What you can't do is selectively discriminate. They were never going to win their case, or their appeal. Its not even about gay rights, its the same rights everyone has. Unless specifically licensed no business can refuse you service without good and lawful reason.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
 Donnyeagle doncaster 27 Oct 16 11.25am |
  |
|---|---|
|
Thats not quite right, A business can refuse service at their discretion they don't have to actually give you a reason.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
 |
| carlonoil Naples 27 Oct 16 12.22pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by jamiemartin721
A business, that caters to the public, is bound by legal requirements that prohibit it from discrimination in its provision of service. Irrespective of their beliefs of employees and owners. Whilst a business can refuse to accept 'political messages etc' it must be across the board (it cannot discriminate on personally held views). What does this mean? Edited by carlonoil (27 Oct 2016 12.22pm)
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 12.50pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Let me help. If you open a shop then you sell to everyone or no one. And you obey the law.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| carlonoil Naples 27 Oct 16 12.58pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Sedlescombe
Let me help. If you open a shop then you sell to everyone or no one. And you obey the law. So you can go into a Jewish owned bakery and say you want a cake with "the Holocaust was a lie" on it?
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 1.04pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by carlonoil
So you can go into a Jewish owned bakery and say you want a cake with "the Holocaust was a lie" on it? You have to obey the law including though not restricted to anti discriminatory law? You can set up any number of scenarios which you can decide for yourself whether they breach existing legislation. For example I don't understand how the age of consent one applies? What laws does it breach other than good taste.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| carlonoil Naples 27 Oct 16 1.11pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Sedlescombe
You have to obey the law including though not restricted to anti discriminatory law? You can set up any number of scenarios which you can decide for yourself whether they breach existing legislation. For example I don't understand how the age of consent one applies? What laws does it breach other than good taste. As Tachell said: "in a free society neither they nor anyone else should be compelled to facilitate a political idea they oppose." I would go further, and say that a business should have the right to refuse a customer for any reason whatsoever.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 1.17pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by carlonoil
As Tachell said: "in a free society neither they nor anyone else should be compelled to facilitate a political idea they oppose." I would go further, and say that a business should have the right to refuse a customer for any reason whatsoever. Tatchell is entitled to the his point of view but it is not the law and I hope it never becomes the law As for any business having the right to turn away anyone it likes. A Britain where signs can go up like "No Blacks, No Irish, No dogs" which we used to have in the UK is not a place I want to live.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| carlonoil Naples 27 Oct 16 1.23pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Sedlescombe
Tatchell is entitled to the his point of view but it is not the law and I hope it never becomes the law As for any business having the right to turn away anyone it likes. A Britain where signs can go up like "No Blacks, No Irish, No dogs" which we used to have in the UK is not a place I want to live. You think it doesn't happen - with or without signs?
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
Login / RegisterNew users
Registration is now on our new message board
Existing users
To login with your existing username you will need to convert your account over to the new message board.
Sponsors
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2024 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.