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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 08 Jan 16 10.14am | |
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According to this, Gaddafi told Blair what would happen if Libya was attacked. Thoughts?
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Rudi Hedman Caterham 08 Jan 16 10.30am | |
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Here's another gem. "Oh dear, dear old Jacques, he doesn't get it, does he?"...' Cheshire cat grinning Tony always knew/knows best and we're all too stupid, and still are, to know any better or make decisions. Europe, Iraq, Libya. Clever fella though. Gets out before the sh1t hits the fan and leaves his Scottish sidekick to take the flack.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 08 Jan 16 10.36am | |
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Problem of the times, it was fairly well argued in less listened to circles, that Libya, Iraq and Syria presented countries that were 'enemies of my enemies' as far as Islamic movements were concerned. Whilst not ever erstwhile allies, they were countries that were even less popular with al-Qaeda and their ilk, than the UK or US (because they were very secular Muslim nations). However Syria, Libya, pakistan and Turkey all have experienced rising Islamist movements in the 21st century, and it isn't necessarily a case that western actions created a problem in Libya, the problem, like Iraq, in some ways, has been the assumption that intervention alone would create a 'better country' - When in fact the experience of history generally points that successful uprisings and civil wars tend to favour the best organised and resourced factions in the winning side - Traditionally this has tended to be Communist groups in the cold war, and its not a stretch to say in the modern age this tends to be Islamist groups. The consequence of the end of the Gaddafi regime (much like the Saddam one) has been increased Islamist power in those countries - simply because in both countries those movements had been organised against the state, and the subject of state suppression, for a decade and more.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 08 Jan 16 10.38am | |
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Quote nickgusset at 08 Jan 2016 10.14am
According to this, Gaddafi told Blair what would happen if Libya was attacked. Thoughts? My initial thought is: What is your opinion, what do YOU think should have happened?
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jamiemartin721 Reading 08 Jan 16 10.45am | |
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Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Jan 2016 10.38am
Quote nickgusset at 08 Jan 2016 10.14am
According to this, Gaddafi told Blair what would happen if Libya was attacked. Thoughts? My initial thought is: What is your opinion, what do YOU think should have happened? These situations, if you're going to get involved in them, are usually a case of 'better the devil you know' rather than the unknown outcome. Countries like Libya, Iraq etc were really secured and stabilised by the oppression of a 'strong man' (the same would happen in Saudi if you removed the House of Saud). Problem of course is that you can't necessarily justify supporting the strong man either, ethically.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 08 Jan 16 11.05am | |
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Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Jan 2016 10.38am
Quote nickgusset at 08 Jan 2016 10.14am
According to this, Gaddafi told Blair what would happen if Libya was attacked. Thoughts? My initial thought is: What is your opinion, what do YOU think should have happened? My opinion is the same as it was before the second Iraq war. Deposing a leader and imposing 'western style democracy' or expecting it to happen naturally is a big mistake as it has the potential to open a pandora's box of trouble, far worse than the one under the existing, albeit by no means satisfactory, regime.
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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 08 Jan 16 11.33am | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Jan 2016 10.45am
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Jan 2016 10.38am
Quote nickgusset at 08 Jan 2016 10.14am
According to this, Gaddafi told Blair what would happen if Libya was attacked. Thoughts? My initial thought is: What is your opinion, what do YOU think should have happened? These situations, if you're going to get involved in them, are usually a case of 'better the devil you know' rather than the unknown outcome. Countries like Libya, Iraq etc were really secured and stabilised by the oppression of a 'strong man' (the same would happen in Saudi if you removed the House of Saud). Problem of course is that you can't necessarily justify supporting the strong man either, ethically. But Thatcher is a c*** for supporting Pinochet? I actually agree with you & Nick in his subsequent post. The Arab spring was always going to be a bit of a disaster as they don't do politics as such. Tribal loyalties will always surpass any political (as in party) loyalty. I remember posting about benevolent dictators often being preferable a few years ago and getting shot down in flames by most on here.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 08 Jan 16 2.51pm | |
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Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Jan 2016 11.33am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Jan 2016 10.45am
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Jan 2016 10.38am
Quote nickgusset at 08 Jan 2016 10.14am
According to this, Gaddafi told Blair what would happen if Libya was attacked. Thoughts? My initial thought is: What is your opinion, what do YOU think should have happened? These situations, if you're going to get involved in them, are usually a case of 'better the devil you know' rather than the unknown outcome. Countries like Libya, Iraq etc were really secured and stabilised by the oppression of a 'strong man' (the same would happen in Saudi if you removed the House of Saud). Problem of course is that you can't necessarily justify supporting the strong man either, ethically. But Thatcher is a c*** for supporting Pinochet? I actually agree with you & Nick in his subsequent post. The Arab spring was always going to be a bit of a disaster as they don't do politics as such. Tribal loyalties will always surpass any political (as in party) loyalty. I remember posting about benevolent dictators often being preferable a few years ago and getting shot down in flames by most on here. Difference with Pinochet is that he over threw a stable democratically elected and popular government. I wouldn't go so far as sheltering or protecting say Gaddaffi - His crimes were his crimes, and puppets like this only have value for as long as they are useful.
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