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Mapletree Croydon 07 Jul 16 9.13pm | |
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Originally posted by JohnyBoy
But with respect, we will have to do some kind of brexit but what do you replace it with? Is the Norway model ok or is it a hard brexit for you? I dont expect you to know the exact answer because no-one has a clue or a plan of any kind, except maybe for some cunning bloke called Baldrick. I appreciate that many people wanted sovereignty back. My concern throughout has been that poor people have fewer choices. Lose money you lose leverage. I am convinced we are going to be significantly poorer in the short, medium and long term as a result of an exit. And you know, beggars can't be choosers. So - perversely - we shall get back sovereignty but lose the ability to do much with it. Frankly I am not desperately excited about getting back sovereignty anyway, I am not convinced our elected politicians are so very much better than Europe's mix of elected and unelected. There are very few UK politicians that I find admirable and I don't even believe that most of the time they are working for the common good. Recent events have shown they have strong tendencies towards looking after themselves first and foremost. To me, an election just feels like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
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chris123 hove actually 07 Jul 16 9.18pm | |
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Originally posted by JohnyBoy
But with respect, we will have to do some kind of brexit but what do you replace it with? Is the Norway model ok or is it a hard brexit for you? I dont expect you to know the exact answer because no-one has a clue or a plan of any kind, except maybe for some cunning bloke called Baldrick. On a previous post pre- the vote, I said on here my preferred route would be whatever is best for us, including WTO options. The EU is not the only market, and if you exclude Northern Europe, the Southern areas are all pretty moribund trade wise.
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chris123 hove actually 07 Jul 16 9.21pm | |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
I appreciate that many people wanted sovereignty back. My concern throughout has been that poor people have fewer choices. Lose money you lose leverage. I am convinced we are going to be significantly poorer in the short, medium and long term as a result of an exit. And you know, beggars can't be choosers. So - perversely - we shall get back sovereignty but lose the ability to do much with it. Frankly I am not desperately excited about getting back sovereignty anyway, I am not convinced our elected politicians are so very much better than Europe's mix of elected and unelected. There are very few UK politicians that I find admirable and I don't even believe that most of the time they are working for the common good. Recent events have shown they have strong tendencies towards looking after themselves first and foremost. To me, an election just feels like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. The difference is that following Brexit, you can get rid of politicians that don't deliver via your vote.
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JohnyBoy 07 Jul 16 9.23pm | |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
I appreciate that many people wanted sovereignty back. My concern throughout has been that poor people have fewer choices. Lose money you lose leverage. I am convinced we are going to be significantly poorer in the short, medium and long term as a result of an exit. And you know, beggars can't be choosers. So - perversely - we shall get back sovereignty but lose the ability to do much with it. Frankly I am not desperately excited about getting back sovereignty anyway, I am not convinced our elected politicians are so very much better than Europe's mix of elected and unelected. There are very few UK politicians that I find admirable and I don't even believe that most of the time they are working for the common good. Recent events have shown they have strong tendencies towards looking after themselves first and foremost. To me, an election just feels like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. I agree with you Maple but can anyone tell me when we turned our democracy from decisions based on representation of the peoples into a plebiscite democracy i.e. rule by referendum. The 1975 referendum was advisory and the result supported the elected governments position ...but we have never taken a referendum as a direct change to policy before. We may only be rearranging the deckchairs or 'same trough different pigs' but our system of elected representation of the people has formed the basis of our democracy for hundreds of years....so go ahead do brexit but please let us help decide what type of sh!tstorm we are sailing into.
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leifandersonshair Newport 07 Jul 16 9.27pm | |
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Originally posted by chris123
The difference is that following Brexit, you can get rid of politicians that don't deliver via your vote. Apart from the Lords of course. Who can block/delay/derail to their hearts content any legislation they don't fancy. When are the House of Lords elections again?
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rob1969 Banstead Surrey 07 Jul 16 9.28pm | |
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Thought we had fixed 5 year term governments now? Is it so - unless the government of the day decide to go earlier?
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JohnyBoy 07 Jul 16 9.33pm | |
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Originally posted by chris123
On a previous post pre- the vote, I said on here my preferred route would be whatever is best for us, including WTO options. The EU is not the only market, and if you exclude Northern Europe, the Southern areas are all pretty moribund trade wise. So which model is best for us? Surely we all want 'what is best for us'. I would imagine that there would be some disagreement over which brexit one is really the best though...and i personally doubt that we would get a better deal or more control i.e. vetoes etc than the one we've just decided to leave.
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chris123 hove actually 07 Jul 16 9.46pm | |
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Originally posted by JohnyBoy
So which model is best for us? Surely we all want 'what is best for us'. I would imagine that there would be some disagreement over which brexit one is really the best though...and i personally doubt that we would get a better deal or more control i.e. vetoes etc than the one we've just decided to leave. On my previous post, that I mentioned earlier, the subject was trade - hence mention of the WTO. So for example we may negotiate trade deals that are better than the ones we currently have, and I'm thinking of China in particular.
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JohnyBoy 07 Jul 16 9.56pm | |
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Originally posted by chris123
On my previous post, that I mentioned earlier, the subject was trade - hence mention of the WTO. So for example we may negotiate trade deals that are better than the ones we currently have, and I'm thinking of China in particular. We already are in wto agreement with China but when Switzerland negotiated their 'free' trade agreement with China, they said ok China we have a population of 10million and we want free trade with you and your population of 1billion +. Ok said China we will do a deal with you, we will give you free trade ....ahem but only in 15 years time but you give us full and free access to yours now....or we will never trade with you, which means your market will bd flooded by cheap Chinese goods.......er ok said Switzerland, thats a deal. They couldnt have said that to the eu because its a bigger economic market....but this is a redundant argument now anyway....leave is leave but lets not be naive that all of these great deals will suddenly come our way now that we are smaller but 'in control'
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chris123 hove actually 07 Jul 16 10.00pm | |
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Originally posted by JohnyBoy
We already are in wto agreement with China but when Switzerland negotiated their 'free' trade agreement with China, they said ok China we have a population of 10million and we want free trade with you and your population of 1billion +. Ok said China we will do a deal with you, we will give you free trade ....ahem but only in 15 years time but you give us full and free access to yours now....or we will never trade with you, which means your market will bd flooded by cheap Chinese goods.......er ok said Switzerland, thats a deal. They couldnt have said that to the eu because its a bigger economic market....but this is a redundant argument now anyway....leave is leave but lets not be naive that all of these great deals will suddenly come our way now that we are smaller but 'in control' For absolute clarity, I have never said that deals will be great - just the best possible.
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dynamicdick Dormansland 14 Jul 16 8.40pm | |
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Originally posted by leifandersonshair
Apart from the Lords of course. Who can block/delay/derail to their hearts content any legislation they don't fancy. When are the House of Lords elections again? The slight difference here is that this is the will of the people (the majority) and in this regard they would be foolish to prevaricate. It will be interesting to see what the agreement process will be for the negotiations i.e. will it have to be agreed by Parliament...I would have thought so and therefore crucial that there is a strong Chief Whip for the Tories.
Bring back Brolin |
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Ray in Houston Houston 14 Jul 16 9.37pm | |
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Originally posted by HeathMan
I am confused, and will appreciate comment. In 2015 Dave was elected on a manifesto that included the referendum. He has a Mandate to take the country out of the European Union; has he decided that after arranging for the arguments to be presented he can opt out of leading the country as it has decided. An election will just delay matters and could potentially give us a diet of Euro-fudge - rather than the preferred Devon Fudge.
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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