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bilbo Flag 07 Nov 15 10.33pm Send a Private Message to bilbo Add bilbo as a friend

The MOBOs was a who's who of about every famous black person in Britain. According to some here that means they're all incredible racists. It makes me laugh. Simple explanations please simple minds.

Edited by bilbo (07 Nov 2015 10.39pm)

 

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Casual Flag Orpington 08 Nov 15 12.51pm Send a Private Message to Casual Add Casual as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Nov 2015 3.54pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 07 Nov 2015 12.43pm

Quote Seth at 07 Nov 2015 11.50am

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Nov 2015 9.04pm

Quote Seth at 05 Nov 2015 6.11pm

Everything made by humans is of black origin, seeing as we descend from people who came out of Africa and were most definitely black.

Which makes you all self-hating racists


Er no.

You could equally credit one celled sea creatures.

Today's music might have evolved from any number of places. Just because Africans have music and we all descended from Africans does not mean that contemporary music originated wholly or partly from Black people. That is presumption without any proof.
Just because black people sung the blues for example, doesn't mean they didn't learn it from the Romans. (I'm not sayng they actually did BTW)

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (05 Nov 2015 9.10pm)

Er no. I was talking about humans, not amoeba. That's why I said "Everything made by humans..."

That humans originated in Africa is not a presumption. It is very well researched and evidenced in many studies. Therefore my assertion stands.

EDIT: There were black Romans too anyway, but I'm not sure if they invented the Blues.

Edited by Seth (07 Nov 2015 11.51am)

You miss my point.

You could argue that black people invented the telephone or discovered radium by the same logic. It doesn't wash.

Prove that black people invented modern music. I dare you.

Just the good stuff. I think its kind of hard to doubt that genres such as Jazz, Rock, Rock N Roll, Blues, Soul and Disco were pioneered and pushed forwards by black artists into a white audience that then embraced them. Genres such as Funk, Hip Hop, Rap, Detroit House music and also revolutionised music again throughout a more modern period.

When I think Jazz and Blues (arguably the two most influential of genres) I think Billie Holiday, Miles Davis, Robert Johnson, Lead Belly, Muddy Waters, Blind Lemon, John Coltraine, rather than... Eric Clapton and Glenn Miller.

Elvis might have been the king of rock and roll, but he was really just playing black music to white kids, as were the Stones and Beatles when they both started out. That's not to say white music was entirely non-contributory (Country music for example), but that modern music really stems from the influence of the 50s and 60s adaptation of black influences.

Of course the real pioneer was Patti Page and Frankie Laine.

When I think of jazz and blues , I think " what a load of f**king s**t"

 

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Casual Flag Orpington 08 Nov 15 12.52pm Send a Private Message to Casual Add Casual as a friend

Quote Casual at 08 Nov 2015 12.51pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Nov 2015 3.54pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 07 Nov 2015 12.43pm

Quote Seth at 07 Nov 2015 11.50am

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Nov 2015 9.04pm

Quote Seth at 05 Nov 2015 6.11pm

Everything made by humans is of black origin, seeing as we descend from people who came out of Africa and were most definitely black.

Which makes you all self-hating racists


Er no.

You could equally credit one celled sea creatures.

Today's music might have evolved from any number of places. Just because Africans have music and we all descended from Africans does not mean that contemporary music originated wholly or partly from Black people. That is presumption without any proof.
Just because black people sung the blues for example, doesn't mean they didn't learn it from the Romans. (I'm not sayng they actually did BTW)

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (05 Nov 2015 9.10pm)

Er no. I was talking about humans, not amoeba. That's why I said "Everything made by humans..."

That humans originated in Africa is not a presumption. It is very well researched and evidenced in many studies. Therefore my assertion stands.

EDIT: There were black Romans too anyway, but I'm not sure if they invented the Blues.

Edited by Seth (07 Nov 2015 11.51am)

You miss my point.

You could argue that black people invented the telephone or discovered radium by the same logic. It doesn't wash.

Prove that black people invented modern music. I dare you.

Just the good stuff. I think its kind of hard to doubt that genres such as Jazz, Rock, Rock N Roll, Blues, Soul and Disco were pioneered and pushed forwards by black artists into a white audience that then embraced them. Genres such as Funk, Hip Hop, Rap, Detroit House music and also revolutionised music again throughout a more modern period.

When I think Jazz and Blues (arguably the two most influential of genres) I think Billie Holiday, Miles Davis, Robert Johnson, Lead Belly, Muddy Waters, Blind Lemon, John Coltraine, rather than... Eric Clapton and Glenn Miller.

Elvis might have been the king of rock and roll, but he was really just playing black music to white kids, as were the Stones and Beatles when they both started out. That's not to say white music was entirely non-contributory (Country music for example), but that modern music really stems from the influence of the 50s and 60s adaptation of black influences.

Of course the real pioneer was Patti Page and Frankie Laine.

When I think of jazz and blues , I think " what a load of f**king s**t"


Although I am a fan of jazz mags and blue movies.

 

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dougster Flag 08 Nov 15 2.39pm Send a Private Message to dougster Add dougster as a friend

Why didn't Yala win a MOBO? Must be an oversight.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Nov 15 3.09pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Quote Seth at 07 Nov 2015 2.45pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 07 Nov 2015 2.17pm

Your original point was nonsense. That was the problem.

To say all human made things are of black origin because all people were once black is simplt flawed logic and secondly, you can't even prove the seemingly obvious assertion that all humans were once black. Nobody knows for sure, and in any case, that has nothing to do with who invented what. Your logic is barmy.

Nobody knows for sure? Don't take my word for it:

Dark skin

All modern humans share a common ancestor who lived around 200,000 years ago in Africa.[20] Comparisons between known skin pigmentation genes in chimpanzees and modern Africans show that dark skin evolved along with the loss of body hair about 1.2 million years ago and is the ancestral state of all humans.[21] Investigations into dark skinned populations in South Asia and Melanesia indicate that skin pigmentation in these populations is due to the preservation of this ancestral state and not due to new variations on a previously lightened population.[8][22]

Hence the leading hypothesis for the evolution of human skin color proposes that:

From about 1.2 million years ago to less than 100,000 years ago, archaic humans, including archaic Homo sapiens, were dark-skinned.
As Homo sapiens populations began to migrate, the evolutionary constraint keeping skin dark decreased proportionally to the distance north a population migrated, resulting in a range of skin tones within northern populations.
At some point, some northern populations experienced positive selection for lighter skin due to the increased production of vitamin D from sunlight and the genes for darker skin disappeared from these populations.
Subsequent migrations into different UV environments and admixture between populations have resulted in the varied range of skin pigmentations we see today.

[Link]

I'm sure we were all black once. My point was about proving it conclusively. Science has a track record of being wrong on a lot of things archaeological.
A few years back they were telling us that modern humans and Neanderthals did not share genes. I knew they were wrong about that and it has now been confirmed.
Now getting back to music. There is no way to confirm that black people invented modern music. In fact, since music evolves from older forms all the time, no one can be sure about where the current form started.
It might well have been in Africa but good luck proving that.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Nov 15 3.17pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Quote bilbo at 07 Nov 2015 10.33pm

The MOBOs was a who's who of about every famous black person in Britain. According to some here that means they're all incredible racists. It makes me laugh. Simple explanations please simple minds.

Edited by bilbo (07 Nov 2015 10.39pm)


Yes but those rules are not applied equally.

If we had a celebration of all things white, it would be accused of racism. Simple mindedness comes in many forms.

Celebrating blackness is outdated by the same measure unless of course you would prefer us to return to a 70's mentality toward ethnic minorities.

One can't have one's cake and eat it.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Nov 15 3.24pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Nov 2015 3.54pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 07 Nov 2015 12.43pm

Quote Seth at 07 Nov 2015 11.50am

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 05 Nov 2015 9.04pm

Quote Seth at 05 Nov 2015 6.11pm

Everything made by humans is of black origin, seeing as we descend from people who came out of Africa and were most definitely black.

Which makes you all self-hating racists


Er no.

You could equally credit one celled sea creatures.

Today's music might have evolved from any number of places. Just because Africans have music and we all descended from Africans does not mean that contemporary music originated wholly or partly from Black people. That is presumption without any proof.
Just because black people sung the blues for example, doesn't mean they didn't learn it from the Romans. (I'm not sayng they actually did BTW)

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (05 Nov 2015 9.10pm)

Er no. I was talking about humans, not amoeba. That's why I said "Everything made by humans..."

That humans originated in Africa is not a presumption. It is very well researched and evidenced in many studies. Therefore my assertion stands.

EDIT: There were black Romans too anyway, but I'm not sure if they invented the Blues.

Edited by Seth (07 Nov 2015 11.51am)

You miss my point.

You could argue that black people invented the telephone or discovered radium by the same logic. It doesn't wash.

Prove that black people invented modern music. I dare you.

Just the good stuff. I think its kind of hard to doubt that genres such as Jazz, Rock, Rock N Roll, Blues, Soul and Disco were pioneered and pushed forwards by black artists into a white audience that then embraced them. Genres such as Funk, Hip Hop, Rap, Detroit House music and also revolutionised music again throughout a more modern period.

When I think Jazz and Blues (arguably the two most influential of genres) I think Billie Holiday, Miles Davis, Robert Johnson, Lead Belly, Muddy Waters, Blind Lemon, John Coltraine, rather than... Eric Clapton and Glenn Miller.

Elvis might have been the king of rock and roll, but he was really just playing black music to white kids, as were the Stones and Beatles when they both started out. That's not to say white music was entirely non-contributory (Country music for example), but that modern music really stems from the influence of the 50s and 60s adaptation of black influences.

Of course the real pioneer was Patti Page and Frankie Laine.

Absolutely no doubt that most forms of current music were in large part derived and stolen from black musicians in the modern era.
That was not really the argument.I was talking about much further back in time.

The one exception is classical music which still influences music more than people realise.


 

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bilbo Flag 08 Nov 15 6.43pm Send a Private Message to bilbo Add bilbo as a friend

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 08 Nov 2015 3.17pm

Quote bilbo at 07 Nov 2015 10.33pm

The MOBOs was a who's who of about every famous black person in Britain. According to some here that means they're all incredible racists. It makes me laugh. Simple explanations please simple minds.

Edited by bilbo (07 Nov 2015 10.39pm)


Yes but those rules are not applied equally.

If we had a celebration of all things white, it would be accused of racism. Simple mindedness comes in many forms.

Celebrating blackness is outdated by the same measure unless of course you would prefer us to return to a 70's mentality toward ethnic minorities.

One can't have one's cake and eat it.


Where the vast majority of people fall within one demographic it's already the focus and the dominating voice. Others are to varying degrees less likely to be treated fairly, are identifiable by their difference and more likely to hold other cultural ties. That is balanced out by them developing an identity that is mainstream but very often includes a bond with those sharing these same experiences and challenges.

There is a specific niche audience for say the Asian Network whereas there is little need for 'White TV' in a society that is vasty white. By nature of that fact the motivation for it would come from a different place. This is my logic behind the belief that all British black celebs, most of whom were at the MOBOS, aren't incredible racists which is essentially what some people here are saying.

By the same token if the country was vastly black instead of white I would understand the relevance of niche shows catering to that audience.


Edited by bilbo (08 Nov 2015 7.04pm)

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Nov 15 7.12pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Quote bilbo at 08 Nov 2015 6.43pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 08 Nov 2015 3.17pm

Quote bilbo at 07 Nov 2015 10.33pm

The MOBOs was a who's who of about every famous black person in Britain. According to some here that means they're all incredible racists. It makes me laugh. Simple explanations please simple minds.

Edited by bilbo (07 Nov 2015 10.39pm)


Yes but those rules are not applied equally.

If we had a celebration of all things white, it would be accused of racism. Simple mindedness comes in many forms.

Celebrating blackness is outdated by the same measure unless of course you would prefer us to return to a 70's mentality toward ethnic minorities.

One can't have one's cake and eat it.


Where the vast majority of people are within a demographic it is already the focus and the dominating voice. Others are to varying degrees less likely to be treated fairly, are certainly identifiable by their difference and more likely to hold other cultural ties. That is balanced out by them developing an identity that is mainstream but also often including a bond with those sharing their experiences and challenges.

There is a specific niche audience for say the Asian Network whereas there is little need for 'White TV' in a society that is vasty white. By nature of that fact the motivation for it would come from a different place. This is my logic behind the belief that all British black celebs, most of whom were at the MOBOS, aren't incredible racists which is essentially what some people here are saying.

By the same token if the country was vastly black instead of white I would understand the relevance of niche shows catering to the culture and hisory of that audience.

Edited by bilbo (08 Nov 2015 6.50pm)

A argument very well expressed. I don't agree because there is more than enough black representation in media.
There are may more black faces on TV than the 3% in the population warrants. News readers, actors, footballers, musicians, athletes, politicians etc etc.

I don't think any one should reasonably be feeling left out.

 

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bilbo Flag 08 Nov 15 7.27pm Send a Private Message to bilbo Add bilbo as a friend

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 08 Nov 2015 7.12pm

Quote bilbo at 08 Nov 2015 6.43pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 08 Nov 2015 3.17pm

Quote bilbo at 07 Nov 2015 10.33pm

The MOBOs was a who's who of about every famous black person in Britain. According to some here that means they're all incredible racists. It makes me laugh. Simple explanations please simple minds.

Edited by bilbo (07 Nov 2015 10.39pm)


Yes but those rules are not applied equally.

If we had a celebration of all things white, it would be accused of racism. Simple mindedness comes in many forms.

Celebrating blackness is outdated by the same measure unless of course you would prefer us to return to a 70's mentality toward ethnic minorities.

One can't have one's cake and eat it.


Where the vast majority of people are within a demographic it is already the focus and the dominating voice. Others are to varying degrees less likely to be treated fairly, are certainly identifiable by their difference and more likely to hold other cultural ties. That is balanced out by them developing an identity that is mainstream but also often including a bond with those sharing their experiences and challenges.

There is a specific niche audience for say the Asian Network whereas there is little need for 'White TV' in a society that is vasty white. By nature of that fact the motivation for it would come from a different place. This is my logic behind the belief that all British black celebs, most of whom were at the MOBOS, aren't incredible racists which is essentially what some people here are saying.

By the same token if the country was vastly black instead of white I would understand the relevance of niche shows catering to the culture and hisory of that audience.

Edited by bilbo (08 Nov 2015 6.50pm)

A argument very well expressed. I don't agree because there is more than enough black representation in media.
There are may more black faces on TV than the 3% in the population warrants. News readers, actors, footballers, musicians, athletes, politicians etc etc.

I don't think any one should reasonably be feeling left out.

Thanks!

Black people are certainly and thankfully much better represented than was once the case but these things take a while to fully filter through into peoples thinking.

 

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Seth Flag On a pale blue dot 09 Nov 15 1.02am Send a Private Message to Seth Add Seth as a friend

Quote bilbo at 08 Nov 2015 6.43pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 08 Nov 2015 3.17pm

Quote bilbo at 07 Nov 2015 10.33pm

The MOBOs was a who's who of about every famous black person in Britain. According to some here that means they're all incredible racists. It makes me laugh. Simple explanations please simple minds.

Edited by bilbo (07 Nov 2015 10.39pm)


Yes but those rules are not applied equally.

If we had a celebration of all things white, it would be accused of racism. Simple mindedness comes in many forms.

Celebrating blackness is outdated by the same measure unless of course you would prefer us to return to a 70's mentality toward ethnic minorities.

One can't have one's cake and eat it.


Where the vast majority of people fall within one demographic it's already the focus and the dominating voice. Others are to varying degrees less likely to be treated fairly, are identifiable by their difference and more likely to hold other cultural ties. That is balanced out by them developing an identity that is mainstream but very often includes a bond with those sharing these same experiences and challenges.

There is a specific niche audience for say the Asian Network whereas there is little need for 'White TV' in a society that is vasty white. By nature of that fact the motivation for it would come from a different place. This is my logic behind the belief that all British black celebs, most of whom were at the MOBOS, aren't incredible racists which is essentially what some people here are saying.

By the same token if the country was vastly black instead of white I would understand the relevance of niche shows catering to that audience.


Edited by bilbo (08 Nov 2015 7.04pm)

Excellent explanation of the situation mr baggins

 


"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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Seth Flag On a pale blue dot 09 Nov 15 1.04am Send a Private Message to Seth Add Seth as a friend

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 08 Nov 2015 7.12pm

Quote bilbo at 08 Nov 2015 6.43pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 08 Nov 2015 3.17pm

Quote bilbo at 07 Nov 2015 10.33pm

The MOBOs was a who's who of about every famous black person in Britain. According to some here that means they're all incredible racists. It makes me laugh. Simple explanations please simple minds.

Edited by bilbo (07 Nov 2015 10.39pm)


Yes but those rules are not applied equally.

If we had a celebration of all things white, it would be accused of racism. Simple mindedness comes in many forms.

Celebrating blackness is outdated by the same measure unless of course you would prefer us to return to a 70's mentality toward ethnic minorities.

One can't have one's cake and eat it.


Where the vast majority of people are within a demographic it is already the focus and the dominating voice. Others are to varying degrees less likely to be treated fairly, are certainly identifiable by their difference and more likely to hold other cultural ties. That is balanced out by them developing an identity that is mainstream but also often including a bond with those sharing their experiences and challenges.

There is a specific niche audience for say the Asian Network whereas there is little need for 'White TV' in a society that is vasty white. By nature of that fact the motivation for it would come from a different place. This is my logic behind the belief that all British black celebs, most of whom were at the MOBOS, aren't incredible racists which is essentially what some people here are saying.

By the same token if the country was vastly black instead of white I would understand the relevance of niche shows catering to the culture and hisory of that audience.

Edited by bilbo (08 Nov 2015 6.50pm)

A argument very well expressed. I don't agree because there is more than enough black representation in media.
There are may more black faces on TV than the 3% in the population warrants. News readers, actors, footballers, musicians, athletes, politicians etc etc.

I don't think any one should reasonably be feeling left out.


What makes you think you are qualified to speak on behalf of black people's experience in this country?

Just like I wouldn't claim to speak for 9th century Norse pirates, I don't think you have any right to say who should feel represented or not, apart from yourself.

Edited by Seth (09 Nov 2015 1.15am)

 


"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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