You are here: Home > Message Board > Football Talk > Ched Evans saga part ???
November 23 2024 7.08am

This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.

Ched Evans saga part ???

Previous Topic | Next Topic


Page 9 of 32 < 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 >

  

npn Flag Crowborough 08 Jan 15 9.34am Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Quote derby eagle at 08 Jan 2015 8.45am

Quote JohnB at 08 Jan 2015 8.20am

Based on a lot of the posts in here deeming rape as girl gets drunk, stumbles, does a sick, gives a BJ and has a dirty wet put in her, I reckon there must be about 50 rapes a day in the summer months in just Ibiza, Magaluf and Malia alone.

I'm not saying he did or didn't rape her, I just think a lot of people are very quick to say he did with a real matter of fact attitude and then back it up with 'he was convicted'. There are a hell of a lot of wrong convictions, it's not unthinkable to think this may be one of them and the reason he shows little remorse is he is adamant he took part in consensual sex, whether his way of doing it was exceptionally sleazy or not.

It's not unthinkable. But where is the new evidence? I though Gerrard was a tad lucky to get away with the assault charge but in the eyes of the law he's not guilty. Without any new evidence nothing will change and nor should it. We live in jury based evidential system and the appeal system has said his conviction is safe. His latest attempt has about as much chance as any of us have of jumping liz hurley and her saying yes that was great.


That's why I think it's a bit naive to state "he's a rapist because the jury says so", because things change - if this case review decides there's scope for a retrial and he's then acquitted, what then "he's innocent because the jury says so"? Then where are we, an innocent man has been denied his liberty and subsequently his right to work.

I'm happy to say, as it stands, he's a convicted rapist, and treat him accordingly, but I'm afraid I can't be as certain of his guilt as some on here. It's like saying those scumbags who murdered Stephen Lawrence are all innocent (aside from the two currently inside) because a jury said so. I assume most people agree there's a good chance that they are guilty, even if it's not been proven sufficiently.

Not sure I'm making my point very well. I think I'm saying I agree that he should be treated as guilty or innocent based on his current legal status through the court system so as it stands today Evans is a rapist, but not necessarily that I will agree that that conviction/acquittal was correct (which makes you look a bit of a muppet when/if convictions are overturned)

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
JohnB Flag 08 Jan 15 9.48am Send a Private Message to JohnB Add JohnB as a friend

I would also hazard a bet that of all the people that have signed the petition to stop Evans playing for the relevant clubs, 90% of them milked themselves senseless over Tysons role in the Hangover movies despite being a convicted rapist....and biting a mans ear off.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
Midlands Eagle Flag 08 Jan 15 10.54am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Quote derby eagle at 08 Jan 2015 7.40am

A jury seemed quite comfortable convicting him and they sat through all of the evidence. No one here did. There is no new evidence, so there is very little chance of this being overturned and neither should it be. Unless of course every time a conviction is against our own inclination it gets overturned if the majority of the public don't like it as well.

If the conviction is overturned it will be done on the basis of evidence and the rule of law and not on what the majority of the public want or don't want, which is completely irrelevant


 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
Kingvagabond Flag London 08 Jan 15 11.14am Send a Private Message to Kingvagabond Add Kingvagabond as a friend

Quote derby eagle at 08 Jan 2015 7.40am

Quote Stirlingsays at 08 Jan 2015 2.06am

Being someone who helped run a pub for five years in their twenties and spent a time as a bouncer in nightclubs and in both instances saw quite a bit of stuff I'm inherently suspicious of the certainties that Jamie and others have as too this ladies capabilities.

This case to me is rife with possibilities.....What I can know from the evidence is that this guy Ched is a t***...I can say that it's possible that he raped this girl. What I can't say with reasonable certainty is that he did.....From what I've heard of the evidence this conviction should never have stood.

But it's atypical with where the courts are heading with rape.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2015 2.17am)


A jury seemed quite comfortable convicting him and they sat through all of the evidence. No one here did. There is jo new evidence, so there is very little chance of this being overturned and neither should it be. Unless of course every time a conviction is against our own inclination it gets overturned if the majority of the public don't like it as well. The arrogant cvnt is guilty, get over it and move on.

Here's the ironic thing, they didn't seem quite comfortable convicting him. There was no unanimous decision and so jury was informed that he would accept majority verdict. They were then told that both cases were completely different and despite it being a joint verdict they could give different outcomes for Donaldson and Evans. The judges summing up and directions to the jury was somewhat loaded and this was one of the things the original appeal focussed on.
Eventually jury came back with unanimous decisions on both, innocent for Donaldson, guilty for Evans and thus avoided going into a fourth week.

Personally, its why I feel it may be time to go to trial by panel of judges as I feel they would achieve safer convictions or acquittals based on evidence not 'feelings'.

 


Part of Holmesdale Radio: The Next Generation
@KingvagabondHOL

Quote cornwalls palace at 24 Oct 2012 9.37am

He was right!!!...and we killed him!!... poor Orpinton Eagles........

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Jan 15 11.32am

Quote Kingvagabond at 08 Jan 2015 11.14am

Quote derby eagle at 08 Jan 2015 7.40am

Quote Stirlingsays at 08 Jan 2015 2.06am

Being someone who helped run a pub for five years in their twenties and spent a time as a bouncer in nightclubs and in both instances saw quite a bit of stuff I'm inherently suspicious of the certainties that Jamie and others have as too this ladies capabilities.

This case to me is rife with possibilities.....What I can know from the evidence is that this guy Ched is a t***...I can say that it's possible that he raped this girl. What I can't say with reasonable certainty is that he did.....From what I've heard of the evidence this conviction should never have stood.

But it's atypical with where the courts are heading with rape.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2015 2.17am)


A jury seemed quite comfortable convicting him and they sat through all of the evidence. No one here did. There is jo new evidence, so there is very little chance of this being overturned and neither should it be. Unless of course every time a conviction is against our own inclination it gets overturned if the majority of the public don't like it as well. The arrogant cvnt is guilty, get over it and move on.

Here's the ironic thing, they didn't seem quite comfortable convicting him. There was no unanimous decision and so jury was informed that he would accept majority verdict. They were then told that both cases were completely different and despite it being a joint verdict they could give different outcomes for Donaldson and Evans. The judges summing up and directions to the jury was somewhat loaded and this was one of the things the original appeal focussed on.
Eventually jury came back with unanimous decisions on both, innocent for Donaldson, guilty for Evans and thus avoided going into a fourth week.

Personally, its why I feel it may be time to go to trial by panel of judges as I feel they would achieve safer convictions or acquittals based on evidence not 'feelings'.

Which basically suggests that the jury were undecided on Donaldson, not Evans. And that hits a key point of law.

Donaldson could reasonably be said to have believed he had consent by the actions prior to sex (i.e meeting a girl, having a few drinks and going back to the hotel). Evans doesn't have that capacity.

Its an important distinction, because it establishes the importance of the timeline of events.

The case hinges on whether it would be reasonable for Evan to believe he had consent (once it was established that the victim was intoxicated). His actions prior to obtaining consent are key to his conviction - There is no reasonable case to accept that he could have believed he had informed consent by actions of the victim or his own.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Quote this post in a reply
jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Jan 15 11.43am

Quote npn at 08 Jan 2015 9.34am

Quote derby eagle at 08 Jan 2015 8.45am

Quote JohnB at 08 Jan 2015 8.20am

Based on a lot of the posts in here deeming rape as girl gets drunk, stumbles, does a sick, gives a BJ and has a dirty wet put in her, I reckon there must be about 50 rapes a day in the summer months in just Ibiza, Magaluf and Malia alone.

I'm not saying he did or didn't rape her, I just think a lot of people are very quick to say he did with a real matter of fact attitude and then back it up with 'he was convicted'. There are a hell of a lot of wrong convictions, it's not unthinkable to think this may be one of them and the reason he shows little remorse is he is adamant he took part in consensual sex, whether his way of doing it was exceptionally sleazy or not.

It's not unthinkable. But where is the new evidence? I though Gerrard was a tad lucky to get away with the assault charge but in the eyes of the law he's not guilty. Without any new evidence nothing will change and nor should it. We live in jury based evidential system and the appeal system has said his conviction is safe. His latest attempt has about as much chance as any of us have of jumping liz hurley and her saying yes that was great.


That's why I think it's a bit naive to state "he's a rapist because the jury says so", because things change - if this case review decides there's scope for a retrial and he's then acquitted, what then "he's innocent because the jury says so"? Then where are we, an innocent man has been denied his liberty and subsequently his right to work.

I'm happy to say, as it stands, he's a convicted rapist, and treat him accordingly, but I'm afraid I can't be as certain of his guilt as some on here. It's like saying those scumbags who murdered Stephen Lawrence are all innocent (aside from the two currently inside) because a jury said so. I assume most people agree there's a good chance that they are guilty, even if it's not been proven sufficiently.

Not sure I'm making my point very well. I think I'm saying I agree that he should be treated as guilty or innocent based on his current legal status through the court system so as it stands today Evans is a rapist, but not necessarily that I will agree that that conviction/acquittal was correct (which makes you look a bit of a muppet when/if convictions are overturned)

I'd say its a slam dunk case. He admitted having sex with her, to which she consented but was demonstrated to have been incapable of giving consent. By Evans actions prior to sex there is no reliable basis to believe that he could reasonable have been led to believe he had informed consent (unlike his friend).

The prosecution made its case very well, and Evans hung himself by his own statement.

Basically, his friend got her drunk, back to the room, notified him, and then he came back and raped her. Just because the drug involved was alcohol rather than say rohypnal, doesn't make him less of a rapist.

People seem to think this is controversial, but there is nothing new in the case of Evans. That has always been the case in law, that consent must be informed - The only defense against that is to show that its reasonable to consider you had informed consent (such as Donaldson, who was out drinking with the woman, took her back and had been drinking with her).

Its a pretty slam dunk case if you ask me. The problem is that people seem to think the case is about what happened in the room, but its not, its about how the two defendants and victim came to be there.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Quote this post in a reply
Ketteridge Flag Brighton 08 Jan 15 11.59am Send a Private Message to Ketteridge Add Ketteridge as a friend

Doesn't matter if I think he is guilty or not the court found him guilty after weighing up all available evidence so unless he wins the review he is a convicted rapist, so any debate on his guilt or otherwise is immaterial to the debate of whether he should play professionally again.

His conviction is not relevant to the type of employment he is seeking,. To deny him that employment is to punish him twice for the same offence.
He hasn't shown remorse but he would have served additional time for this, so again he would be punished for same offence twice.
I would not like to see him at Palace but the law is the law and it is not for me to pick or choose who it should apply to, he has served his time and should be allowed to return to his employment as any other convicted rapist would be.
So the real questions is are footballers role models and if the are what level of transgression will deny them entry into the profession.

 


One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
Old Chap Flag Orpington 08 Jan 15 12.00pm Send a Private Message to Old Chap Add Old Chap as a friend

Just on BBC news banner "Evans deal off"

[Link]

Edited by Old Chap (08 Jan 2015 12.02pm)

 


Trivial fact - Palace used to win 5-1 at least once a season, maybe next season?

Alert Alert a moderator to this post | Board Moderator Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
Part Time James Flag 08 Jan 15 12.05pm Send a Private Message to Part Time James Add Part Time James as a friend

The BBC have gone with "Oldham drop bid to sign rapist Evans", like "rapist" is his new first name.

I reckon it won't be long before he gives up trying to get into a team. Unless Millwall are interested?

 




Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
OknotOK Flag Cockfosters, London 08 Jan 15 12.29pm Send a Private Message to OknotOK Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add OknotOK as a friend

Quote Part Time James at 08 Jan 2015 12.05pm

The BBC have gone with "Oldham drop bid to sign rapist Evans", like "rapist" is his new first name.

I reckon it won't be long before he gives up trying to get into a team. Unless Millwall are interested?

I didn't want him playing football again. I didn't want to see him officially banned though.

But the Oldham board member saying they received threats actually makes me want him to be able to play again just to fcuk off the sort of $hits that would do that

 


"It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
Part Time James Flag 08 Jan 15 12.32pm Send a Private Message to Part Time James Add Part Time James as a friend

Quote OknotOK at 08 Jan 2015 12.29pm

Quote Part Time James at 08 Jan 2015 12.05pm

The BBC have gone with "Oldham drop bid to sign rapist Evans", like "rapist" is his new first name.

I reckon it won't be long before he gives up trying to get into a team. Unless Millwall are interested?

I didn't want him playing football again. I didn't want to see him officially banned though.

But the Oldham board member saying they received threats actually makes me want him to be able to play again just to fcuk off the sort of $hits that would do that

Depends what the threats were. If the threats were "we'll withdraw thousands of pounds of sponsorship" then fair enough. If they were of a violent nature....not so much.

 




Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
OknotOK Flag Cockfosters, London 08 Jan 15 12.35pm Send a Private Message to OknotOK Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add OknotOK as a friend

Quote Part Time James at 08 Jan 2015 12.32pm

Quote OknotOK at 08 Jan 2015 12.29pm

Quote Part Time James at 08 Jan 2015 12.05pm

The BBC have gone with "Oldham drop bid to sign rapist Evans", like "rapist" is his new first name.

I reckon it won't be long before he gives up trying to get into a team. Unless Millwall are interested?

I didn't want him playing football again. I didn't want to see him officially banned though.

But the Oldham board member saying they received threats actually makes me want him to be able to play again just to fcuk off the sort of $hits that would do that

Depends what the threats were. If the threats were "we'll withdraw thousands of pounds of sponsorship" then fair enough. If they were of a violent nature....not so much.

Implies it was both

Quote
Oldham Athletic have decided against signing convicted rapist Ched Evans following threats to the club's "staff and their families".

A board member told BBC sports editor Dan Roan the decision was also taken because of "enormous pressure from sponsors".


[Link]

 


"It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply

  

Page 9 of 32 < 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 >

Previous Topic | Next Topic

You are here: Home > Message Board > Football Talk > Ched Evans saga part ???