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Israel / Palestine
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 Stuk  Top half 20 Nov 12 8.58pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 20 Nov 2012 8.46pm
Quote Stuk at 20 Nov 2012 8.27pm
Quote pefwin at 20 Nov 2012 8.03pm
Quote crystal balls at 20 Nov 2012 8.01pm
Quote dannyh at 20 Nov 2012 4.54pm
Whats all this hulabalo did someone call someone else a big nose. "Blessed are the cheesemakers"
A little known fact about me is I used to be a cheesemaker. Make cheese, not war!
Optimistic as ever |
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| Oliver Bodega Bay 20 Nov 12 9.16pm |
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Quote Jonny_Johnson at 20 Nov 2012 7.41pm
And another. Robert Fisk: camera.org: Take your choice
I have prepared one of my own time capsules. I have placed some rather large samples of dynamite, gunpowder and nitroglycerin. My time capsule is set to go off in the year 3000. It will show them what we are really like. |
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SloveniaDave  Tirana, Albania 20 Nov 12 9.21pm |
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Quote Oliver at 20 Nov 2012 9.16pm
Quote Jonny_Johnson at 20 Nov 2012 7.41pm
And another. Robert Fisk: camera.org: Take your choice
Fisk has an absolute agenda which is pacifist at heart and which he tries to cover with a veneer of journalistic neutrality. I have absolutely no faith in the accuracy of what he reports. If he gets awards for that, then it says something rather disturbing about those who voted for him.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive) |
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| davidpercival Croydon 20 Nov 12 9.26pm |
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No other country would be allowed to illegally occupy other peoples' land for forty five years. They decide how much power goes into Gaza, how much food, how much medical supplies etc. and turn the tap on and off as they please. Gaza is by far the biggest open air prison in the world.
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| Stirlingsays 20 Nov 12 9.47pm |
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Quote davidpercival at 20 Nov 2012 9.26pm
No other country would be allowed to illegally occupy other peoples' land for forty five years. They decide how much power goes into Gaza, how much food, how much medical supplies etc. and turn the tap on and off as they please. Gaza is by far the biggest open air prison in the world.
Gaza isn't a prison now, people within it can cross the Egyptian border and indeed are now doing so. The Gazans voted in Hamas, all this was very predictable. If you are going to fight fire with fire, don't moan about getting burnt. There will be no peace with Hamas (Iran's proxy) in charge.
Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Nov 2012 9.48pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| davidpercival Croydon 20 Nov 12 9.57pm |
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Sterling is wrong. People cannot come and go into Egypt as they choose. Under pressure from Israel the Egyptians stop them unless they have specific permission to leave or return. Even the Palestine football team cannot get in and out without Israel's permission. The west Bank is similarly controlled but allowed a little more freedom but only as long as Fatah fits in with what Israel wants. As soon as they do the slightest thing that Israel does not like, they send in troops. It is part of the Israel - Egypt "peace" deal which merely perpetuates Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Just imagine if it was the other way round. Would they be prepared to be dealt with like that. We would be hearing about it morning noon and night and you know we would.
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| Stirlingsays 20 Nov 12 10.07pm |
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Quote davidpercival at 20 Nov 2012 9.57pm
Sterling is wrong. People cannot come and go into Egypt as they choose. Under pressure from Israel the Egyptians stop them unless they have specific permission to leave or return. Even the Palestine football team cannot get in and out without Israel's permission. The west Bank is similarly controlled but allowed a little more freedom but only as long as Fatah fits in with what Israel wants. As soon as they do the slightest thing that Israel does not like, they send in troops. It is part of the Israel - Egypt "peace" deal which merely perpetuates Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Just imagine if it was the other way round. Would they be prepared to be dealt with like that. We would be hearing about it morning noon and night and you know we would.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| SloveniaDave Tirana, Albania 20 Nov 12 10.09pm |
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Quote davidpercival at 20 Nov 2012 9.57pm
Sterling is wrong. People cannot come and go into Egypt as they choose. Under pressure from Israel the Egyptians stop them unless they have specific permission to leave or return. Even the Palestine football team cannot get in and out without Israel's permission. The west Bank is similarly controlled but allowed a little more freedom but only as long as Fatah fits in with what Israel wants. As soon as they do the slightest thing that Israel does not like, they send in troops. It is part of the Israel - Egypt "peace" deal which merely perpetuates Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Just imagine if it was the other way round. Would they be prepared to be dealt with like that. We would be hearing about it morning noon and night and you know we would.
But the fact that Egypt allows some passage in and out of Gaza does not negate the points you make nor does it justify the Israeli position. Israel exists now because they had and have powerful allies and money. They were intended to be an island of stability, democracy and good sense in the region. Sadly they have enormously abused that privilege and exploited their position so that they are instead a source of instability and intollerance. One wonders if they will ever learn that real stability and security in that region will never come through military force.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive) |
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| Stirlingsays 20 Nov 12 10.20pm |
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Quote SloveniaDave at 20 Nov 2012 10.09pm
Israel exists now because they had and have powerful allies and money. They were intended to be an island of stability, democracy and good sense in the region. Sadly they have enormously abused that privilege and exploited their position so that they are instead a source of instability and intollerance. One wonders if they will ever learn that real stability and security in that region will never come through military force.
I don't agree with your last statement though. Israel has no choice but to fight, they have been surrounded by enemies since the modern state existed. There will never be any real security for them unless there is a radical re-alignment within the middle east. I can't see that happening. The only choice for Israel is when do they fight, who they fight and how hard. If both peoples managed to vote in moderates then we could maybe revisit the Clinton deal....But we know that isn't going to happen for a long time yet.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Nov 12 10.29pm |
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Mark Steel's take.
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Jonny_Johnson  Tel Aviv 20 Nov 12 10.31pm |
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Quote davidpercival at 20 Nov 2012 9.57pm
Sterling is wrong. People cannot come and go into Egypt as they choose. Under pressure from Israel the Egyptians stop them unless they have specific permission to leave or return. Even the Palestine football team cannot get in and out without Israel's permission. The west Bank is similarly controlled but allowed a little more freedom but only as long as Fatah fits in with what Israel wants. As soon as they do the slightest thing that Israel does not like, they send in troops. It is part of the Israel - Egypt "peace" deal which merely perpetuates Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Just imagine if it was the other way round. Would they be prepared to be dealt with like that. We would be hearing about it morning noon and night and you know we would. The charge/insinuation that Gaza is some sort of prison camp is erroneous. The citizens are not as disenfranchised as the apologists like to portray. The population are quite free to leave via the Rafah-Egyptian Crossing. Gaza boasts a luxury mall and 5-star hotels. Gaza presides over it's own electrical and water grids. (N.b. Life expectancy in Glasgow East is lower than that of Gaza) That is not to say that the general population does not suffer; but given the nature of their rulers Hamas, it is in their interest to prolong any suffering of the general population so as to harden their appeal to the Arab public at large. The West Bank economy in recent years had considerable resurgence in part due to Fatah's embrace of business and free-market. The sooner the Hamas are eradicated from the Palestinian cause, the sooner the Palestinians will be able to preside over their own state.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 20 Nov 12 10.43pm |
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Quote Jonny_Johnson at 20 Nov 2012 10.31pm
Quote davidpercival at 20 Nov 2012 9.57pm
Sterling is wrong. People cannot come and go into Egypt as they choose. Under pressure from Israel the Egyptians stop them unless they have specific permission to leave or return. Even the Palestine football team cannot get in and out without Israel's permission. The west Bank is similarly controlled but allowed a little more freedom but only as long as Fatah fits in with what Israel wants. As soon as they do the slightest thing that Israel does not like, they send in troops. It is part of the Israel - Egypt "peace" deal which merely perpetuates Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Just imagine if it was the other way round. Would they be prepared to be dealt with like that. We would be hearing about it morning noon and night and you know we would. The charge/insinuation that Gaza is some sort of prison camp is erroneous. The citizens are not as disenfranchised as the apologists like to portray. The population are quite free to leave via the Rafah-Egyptian Crossing. Gaza boasts a luxury mall and 5-star hotels. Gaza presides over it's own electrical and water grids. (N.b. Life expectancy in Glasgow East is lower than that of Gaza) That is not to say that the general population does not suffer; but given the nature of their rulers Hamas, it is in their interest to prolong any suffering of the general population so as to harden their appeal to the Arab public at large. The West Bank economy in recent years had considerable resurgence in part due to Fatah's embrace of business and free-market. The sooner the Hamas are eradicated from the Palestinian cause, the sooner the Palestinians will be able to preside over their own state. Palestine won't have any land to preside over soon the way things are going...
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