 Eaglecoops  CR3 01 Mar 21 1.36pm |
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Originally posted by palace99
good point - remember deBoer tried to change us and look what happened.
Just looking back on the team a few years ago - when we beat Leicester 5 - 0 playing 442 the defence wasn't massively different to now and the midfield 4 was Loftus-Cheek, Luka, Cabeye and Jimmy Mac, so essentially 4 centre mids with no great creativity on paper
I have to disagree partially with what you say, RLC and Cabaye were two of the best passers in the league at that time and Luka was probably playing his best football. Creativity isn’t just about beating people on the wings and having skilful players, the killer ball from midfield can be every bit as creative. I thought that was one of our best midfields in recent years.
What we really lack in midfield at present is someone like RLC who carries the ball forward. I was hoping Riedewald would perform this function but he hasn’t played well last couple of matches. I also don’t think it works with Eze, Townsend and Ayew all in the same team.
If we are going to play defensively you might as well start with McCarthy at the expense of one of those 3 or play Kelly at centre half and move Kouyate up to midfield.
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| Putitout Oxford 01 Mar 21 2.16pm |
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The mid field containing Loftus, Cheek, Cabaye, was in a totally different class to what we have now.
Replicate what they brought to the side , and the problems we are having right now would be over to a fair degree. What we have now has not got the ability to transition play under pressure into the opposition half . Luca, is principally there to break opposition moves up, it doesn’t make him a fan favourite, and probably never will , because he doesn’t even have to win the ball to achieve that.
The others though have to offer far more than just bolstering Lucas, work. Riedewald , Eze, are not proving effective when closed down well, in doing what they should if we are ever going to set up any sort of effective attacking play. It’s not that the are not capable of looking the part if allowed, we have seen both come good when allowed, but to many sides have been able to close these two down to the point were their best contribution is standing in front of the defence, confronting the ball now again , not often winning it though. Jimmy Mac, gives it a go when fit, but the edge is coming off this 34 year old.
It’s definitely not a case of being told not to attempt breaking out of defensive positions, but a simple case of not having the where with all to do it at this moment, disappointing all round.
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| Eaglecoops CR3 01 Mar 21 2.33pm |
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Originally posted by Putitout
The mid field containing Loftus, Cheek, Cabaye, was in a totally different class to what we have now.
Replicate what they brought to the side , and the problems we are having right now would be over to a fair degree. What we have now has not got the ability to transition play under pressure into the opposition half . Luca, is principally there to break opposition moves up, it doesn’t make him a fan favourite, and probably never will , because he doesn’t even have to win the ball to achieve that.
The others though have to offer far more than just bolstering Lucas, work. Riedewald , Eze, are not proving effective when closed down well, in doing what they should if we are ever going to set up any sort of effective attacking play. It’s not that the are not capable of looking the part if allowed, we have seen both come good when allowed, but to many sides have been able to close these two down to the point were their best contribution is standing in front of the defence, confronting the ball now again , not often winning it though. Jimmy Mac, gives it a go when fit, but the edge is coming off this 34 year old.
It’s definitely not a case of being told not to attempt breaking out of defensive positions, but a simple case of not having the where with all to do it at this moment, disappointing all round.
I agree, it’s very difficult to hide from a poor midfield. The errors created there show up at both ends of the pitch.
Buy RLC and loan Gallagher or the other way round, perhaps Tufan too, get a decent winger if Wilf goes, a young centre half and a replacement for PVA if he goes and we might be somewhere near competitive next year.
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| doombear Too far from Selhurst Park 01 Mar 21 2.34pm |
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Originally posted by Eaglecoops
I have to disagree partially with what you say, RLC and Cabaye were two of the best passers in the league at that time and Luka was probably playing his best football. Creativity isn’t just about beating people on the wings and having skilful players, the killer ball from midfield can be every bit as creative. I thought that was one of our best midfields in recent years.
What we really lack in midfield at present is someone like RLC who carries the ball forward. I was hoping Riedewald would perform this function but he hasn’t played well last couple of matches. I also don’t think it works with Eze, Townsend and Ayew all in the same team.
If we are going to play defensively you might as well start with McCarthy at the expense of one of those 3 or play Kelly at centre half and move Kouyate up to midfield.
Agreed. Between them, Eze, Townsend and Ayew aren't doing enough. In fact I wonder whether we would be better dropping Eze and one of the other two, moving Riedewald further forward and playing both McCarthy and Kouyate alongside Luka in midfield with Kelly in at CB.
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| PatrickA London 01 Mar 21 2.35pm |
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Agree with much of this.
But in my view it is the manager’s job to set us up in a way to get the best out of Eze and Riedewald.
Clearly the current method does not suit them from observation of recent games.
If we were persist with this way of playing Mcarthy would be a more suitable choice in midfield with his tackling and robust approach.
It would be a shame though that a way could not be found to accommodate two of our better footballers.
Originally posted by Putitout
The mid field containing Loftus, Cheek, Cabaye, was in a totally different class to what we have now.
Replicate what they brought to the side , and the problems we are having right now would be over to a fair degree. What we have now has not got the ability to transition play under pressure into the opposition half . Luca, is principally there to break opposition moves up, it doesn’t make him a fan favourite, and probably never will , because he doesn’t even have to win the ball to achieve that.
The others though have to offer far more than just bolstering Lucas, work. Riedewald , Eze, are not proving effective when closed down well, in doing what they should if we are ever going to set up any sort of effective attacking play. It’s not that the are not capable of looking the part if allowed, we have seen both come good when allowed, but to many sides have been able to close these two down to the point were their best contribution is standing in front of the defence, confronting the ball now again , not often winning it though. Jimmy Mac, gives it a go when fit, but the edge is coming off this 34 year old.
It’s definitely not a case of being told not to attempt breaking out of defensive positions, but a simple case of not having the where with all to do it at this moment, disappointing all round.
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| Putitout Oxford 01 Mar 21 2.55pm |
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Originally posted by PatrickA
Agree with much of this.
But in my view it is the manager’s job to set us up in a way to get the best out of Eze and Riedewald.
Clearly the current method does not suit them from observation of recent games.
If we were persist with this way of playing Mcarthy would be a more suitable choice in midfield with his tackling and robust approach.
It would be a shame though that a way could not be found to accommodate two of our better footballers.
Thing is , if we actually went out with no intention of getting at the opposition, then take those two out straight away. I agree.
Buts that’s the point, they are only in the side to hurt the opposition, and when they don’t it’s not because we are set up wrong, it’s because they in particular are not doing what they were actually sent out to do. That’s not to say they should not get into defensive positions, but it does require them to be capable of getting into attacking mode far better than they do.
LC, and Cabaye, could both drop in when needed, LC still does for Fulham, Someone mentioned Gallagher, he does, or can.
The fact is these two are thought to be two of our better players, and it’s for them to show how good they are, if oppositions can prevent them playing out ,as consistently as has been the case in recent weeks, it’s them that have answer the questions.
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| PatrickA London 01 Mar 21 3.29pm |
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I understand your point about the onus being on the players.
But in fairness we have so many players behind the ball what are their options for forward passes or building momentum?
Ayew does not run in behind defences or seek to play wall passes.He’s the original head down merchant. Townsend is conscientious in his defensive work but is no longer a threat in the final third apart from the occasional flourish. Benteke is not a mobile forward or one who runs the channels.
So inevitably Eze and Riedewald have a lack of options when looking forward.
Perhaps this will improve with the return of Zaha and Schlupp.
Originally posted by Putitout
Thing is , if we actually went out with no intention of getting at the opposition, then take those two out straight away. I agree.
Buts that’s the point, they are only in the side to hurt the opposition, and when they don’t it’s not because we are set up wrong, it’s because they in particular are not doing what they were actually sent out to do. That’s not to say they should not get into defensive positions, but it does require them to be capable of getting into attacking mode far better than they do.
LC, and Cabaye, could both drop in when needed, LC still does for Fulham, Someone mentioned Gallagher, he does, or can.
The fact is these two are thought to be two of our better players, and it’s for them to show how good they are, if oppositions can prevent them playing out ,as consistently as has been the case in recent weeks, it’s them that have answer the questions.
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| Booted Eagle Bristol 02 Mar 21 10.14am |
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Originally posted by PatrickA
I understand your point about the onus being on the players.
But in fairness we have so many players behind the ball what are their options for forward passes or building momentum?
Ayew does not run in behind defences or seek to play wall passes.He’s the original head down merchant. Townsend is conscientious in his defensive work but is no longer a threat in the final third apart from the occasional flourish. Benteke is not a mobile forward or one who runs the channels.
So inevitably Eze and Riedewald have a lack of options when looking forward.
Perhaps this will improve with the return of Zaha and Schlupp.
Neither looked very effective on Sunday. The whole midfield area looked congested and neither seem to make any space for themselves. On another note Guaita's kicks just seemed to be kicking into that area as well.
Edited by Booted Eagle (02 Mar 2021 10.18am)
“ [T]here are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don't know.But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know. ”
—United States Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld
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| palace99 New Mills 02 Mar 21 11.03am |
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Originally posted by Putitout
The mid field containing Loftus, Cheek, Cabaye, was in a totally different class to what we have now.
Replicate what they brought to the side , and the problems we are having right now would be over to a fair degree. What we have now has not got the ability to transition play under pressure into the opposition half . Luca, is principally there to break opposition moves up, it doesn’t make him a fan favourite, and probably never will , because he doesn’t even have to win the ball to achieve that.
The others though have to offer far more than just bolstering Lucas, work. Riedewald , Eze, are not proving effective when closed down well, in doing what they should if we are ever going to set up any sort of effective attacking play. It’s not that the are not capable of looking the part if allowed, we have seen both come good when allowed, but to many sides have been able to close these two down to the point were their best contribution is standing in front of the defence, confronting the ball now again , not often winning it though. Jimmy Mac, gives it a go when fit, but the edge is coming off this 34 year old.
It’s definitely not a case of being told not to attempt breaking out of defensive positions, but a simple case of not having the where with all to do it at this moment, disappointing all round.
Loftus and Cheek are the same player! We could have got him in the summer but chose Batman instead! Cabeye was IMHO over rated and the few good games overshadowed some pretty average performances.
My point is we could still play a similar pass and move style we did then - Eze could play the RLC role for example.
Obviously Zaha was key to that formation but the players are not massively different.
Google the goals from that game - the 1st and 2nd were exceptional, quick passing and movement around the box
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