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elgrande bedford 04 Feb 16 4.09pm | |
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The ones who have family or have grown up here(regardless of where they originated from before you start)...and maybe before the left decided that mass immigration was good for us.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 04 Feb 16 4.16pm | |
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Originally posted by elgrande
The ones who have family or have grown up here(regardless of where they originated from before you start)...and maybe before the left decided that mass immigration was good for us. I think you'll find that mass immigration isn't a 'leftie' ideal, after all aren't left wing ideologies tied in with betterment for workers? Nope, mass immigration serves a right wing agenda. Uncontrolled immigration drives down wages and increases the competition for jobs (especially low-skilled jobs), making the prospect of unemployment, low pay or the horrors of zero hours contracts much more likely for millions of ordinary workers. Another way in which ordinary workers lose out through mass immigration is the increased pressure on local services such as health and education, on which they, and their children rely.
The profitability of the labour surplus is hardly a new concept. Karl Marx explained how capitalism benefits from surplus labour way back in the mid-19th Century. A large standing army of unemployed, provided with just enough welfare to keep them alive is absolutely fundamental to the modern neoliberalised capitalist system. The wealthy minority are almost completely insulated from the negative effects of mass uncontrolled immigration. They don't even notice the extra pressure on services, because the majority of the executive class generally have private health plans and privately educate their kids. What is more, they are much more likely to be dodging their taxes, so many amongst them don't even contribute towards the costs of providing these extra services, despite the fact that they are the ones benefiting most from mass uncontrolled immigration. You've fallen for the spin of the press again I'm afraid. Edited by nickgusset (04 Feb 2016 4.18pm) Attachment: 12670115_10207074524553977_8428254540054138954_n.jpg (37.29Kb)
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elgrande bedford 04 Feb 16 4.32pm | |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
I think you'll find that mass immigration isn't a 'leftie' ideal, after all aren't left wing ideologies tied in with betterment for workers? Nope, mass immigration serves a right wing agenda. Uncontrolled immigration drives down wages and increases the competition for jobs (especially low-skilled jobs), making the prospect of unemployment, low pay or the horrors of zero hours contracts much more likely for millions of ordinary workers. Another way in which ordinary workers lose out through mass immigration is the increased pressure on local services such as health and education, on which they, and their children rely.
The profitability of the labour surplus is hardly a new concept. Karl Marx explained how capitalism benefits from surplus labour way back in the mid-19th Century. A large standing army of unemployed, provided with just enough welfare to keep them alive is absolutely fundamental to the modern neoliberalised capitalist system. The wealthy minority are almost completely insulated from the negative effects of mass uncontrolled immigration. They don't even notice the extra pressure on services, because the majority of the executive class generally have private health plans and privately educate their kids. What is more, they are much more likely to be dodging their taxes, so many amongst them don't even contribute towards the costs of providing these extra services, despite the fact that they are the ones benefiting most from mass uncontrolled immigration. You've fallen for the spin of the press again I'm afraid. Edited by nickgusset (04 Feb 2016 4.18pm)
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Feb 16 4.34pm | |
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Originally posted by elgrande
The ones who have family or have grown up here(regardless of where they originated from before you start)...and maybe before the left decided that mass immigration was good for us. By left, you mean the right of centre government of Tony Blair, who are more or less indistinguishable politically from the current Conservative party?
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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elgrande bedford 04 Feb 16 4.36pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
By left, you mean the right of centre government of Tony Blair, who are more or less indistinguishable politically from the current Conservative party? Maybe Jamie...but Corbyn has it on his agenda
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 04 Feb 16 4.39pm | |
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Originally posted by elgrande
Maybe Jamie...but Corbyn has it on his agenda Corbyn's agenda is to help those fleeing war and persecution.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Feb 16 4.40pm | |
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Originally posted by elgrande
That sounds like capitalism, rather than leftist economics to me, using cheap labour to under cut the market. Its corporate interests that drive the EU and this policy, which no one except the left wing were complaining about prior to the credit crunch. For as long as I can remember I've been banging on that EU migrant labour has been used to undercut the bargaining position of the UK working classes. Don't mistake Tony Blair and Gordon Brown for left wing. Pro-Market, Pro-Capitalist corporate shills that's what New Labour was. That said, Blair did do a good smoke screen.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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elgrande bedford 04 Feb 16 4.44pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
That sounds like capitalism, rather than leftist economics to me, using cheap labour to under cut the market. Its corporate interests that drive the EU and this policy, which no one except the left wing were complaining about prior to the credit crunch. For as long as I can remember I've been banging on that EU migrant labour has been used to undercut the bargaining position of the UK working classes. Don't mistake Tony Blair and Gordon Brown for left wing. Pro-Market, Pro-Capitalist corporate shills that's what New Labour was. That said, Blair did do a good smoke screen. Well I agree with you on the EU labour point...which is the point I was making in the first place. But I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the Calais point.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Feb 16 4.46pm | |
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Originally posted by elgrande
Maybe Jamie...but Corbyn has it on his agenda Corbyn isn't in power, and isn't likely to be in power before the EU referendum, unless the Tory's really drop a total bollock. Corbyn can say what he likes, that's how opposition works, you don't actually have to do anything. Same as when the Tories were stating they'd fix the economy in x years, but have only achieved increasing debt etc. Politics is about deceit, obfuscation and selling s**t to people, because they know that no one will ever want to admit to being duped. All of them support their corporate paymasters, and all of them look vocal and almost 'radical' in opposition, being the 'new messiah come to rescue the party'. But in truth, they don't give a f**k about anybody else.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Feb 16 4.49pm | |
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Originally posted by elgrande
Well I agree with you on the EU labour point...which is the point I was making in the first place. But I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the Calais point. Neither do I. I suspect some of them are, and they deserve the right to be assessed. Problem is, what do you do with the others. You can't send them back, you can't just leave them as 'Frances Problem' either (because they won't be once they get across the channel).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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elgrande bedford 04 Feb 16 4.49pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Corbyn isn't in power, and isn't likely to be in power before the EU referendum, unless the Tory's really drop a total bollock. Corbyn can say what he likes, that's how opposition works, you don't actually have to do anything. Same as when the Tories were stating they'd fix the economy in x years, but have only achieved increasing debt etc. Politics is about deceit, obfuscation and selling s**t to people, because they know that no one will ever want to admit to being duped. All of them support their corporate paymasters, and all of them look vocal and almost 'radical' in opposition, being the 'new messiah come to rescue the party'. But in truth, they don't give a f**k about anybody else. I could not agree more,I have voted Tory all my life, but hate this government with a passion.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 04 Feb 16 4.51pm | |
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Originally posted by elgrande
Well I agree with you on the EU labour point...which is the point I was making in the first place. But I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the Calais point.
Far from being propelled by economic migrants, this crisis is mostly about refugees. The assumption by the likes of Hammond, May and others is that the majority of those trying to reach Europe are fleeing poverty, which is not considered by the international community as a good enough reason to move to another country. Whereas in fact, by the end of July, 62% of those who had reached Europe by boat this year were from Syria, Eritrea and Afghanistan, according to figures compiled by the UN. These are countries torn apart by war, dictatorial oppression, and religious extremism – and, in Syria’s case, all three. Their citizens almost always have the legal right to refuge in Europe. And if you add to the mix those coming from Darfur, Iraq, Somalia, and some parts of Nigeria – then the total proportion of migrants likely to qualify for asylum rises to well over 70%.
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