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Stirlingsays 27 Aug 15 4.23pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm It'd be foolish to say that all the deaths were due to being forced back into work, but I'd wager that a fair few are. Victim's sister: The DWP know they are killing people - Telegraph [Link] (Share from CM Browser) ATOS is a politically inspired system to reduce welfare payments. Of course there are situations where the wrong decisions have been made that have ultimately led to earlier death than would be the case. The point is.....how much responsibility is it reasonable for the state to pick up the negatives within people's lives? A hand out is a hand out and not a right in my book. The state should try to help but in my view the narrative is wrong when people expect a cradle to grave attitude. The state should only offer that kind of service to injured forces personnel. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Aug 15 4.23pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm

It'd be foolish to say that all the deaths were due to being forced back into work, but I'd wager that a fair few are.
Victim's sister: The DWP know they are killing people - Telegraph [Link] (Share from CM Browser)

ATOS is a politically inspired system to reduce welfare payments.

Of course there are situations where the wrong decisions have been made that have ultimately led to earlier death than would be the case.

The point is.....how much responsibility is it reasonable for the state to pick up the negatives within people's lives?

A hand out is a hand out and not a right in my book.

The state should try to help but in my view the narrative is wrong when people expect a cradle to grave attitude.

The state should only offer that kind of service to injured forces personnel.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Aug 15 4.49pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Aug 2015 4.23pm Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm It'd be foolish to say that all the deaths were due to being forced back into work, but I'd wager that a fair few are. Victim's sister: The DWP know they are killing people - Telegraph [Link] (Share from CM Browser) ATOS is a politically inspired system to reduce welfare payments. Of course there are situations where the wrong decisions have been made that have ultimately led to earlier death than would be the case. The point is.....how much responsibility is it reasonable for the state to pick up the negatives within people's lives? A hand out is a hand out and not a right in my book. The state should try to help but in my view the narrative is wrong when people expect a cradle to grave attitude. The state should only offer that kind of service to injured forces personnel. So you are an advocate of a survival of the fittest society?
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 27 Aug 15 4.49pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Aug 2015 4.23pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm

ATOS is a politically inspired system to reduce welfare payments.

Of course there are situations where the wrong decisions have been made that have ultimately led to earlier death than would be the case.

The point is.....how much responsibility is it reasonable for the state to pick up the negatives within people's lives?

A hand out is a hand out and not a right in my book.

The state should try to help but in my view the narrative is wrong when people expect a cradle to grave attitude.

The state should only offer that kind of service to injured forces personnel.

So you are an advocate of a survival of the fittest society?

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orpingtoneagle Orpington 27 Aug 15 4.50pm
Quote The state should only offer that kind of service to injured forces personnel. Don't agree. Where do you draw the line? What about the nurse who treats these people? The civil servants at the M o D who organise them. The compliance staff at HMRC who raise the tax to pay for it all..... The state should support all who need it. ATOS are a private Co all they care about is getting paid not about the people they see. They will dance to the government tune as they pay the bills! Edited by orpingtoneagle (27 Aug 2015 4.51pm)
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orpingtoneagle

Orpington 27 Aug 15 4.50pm

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Quote

The state should only offer that kind of service to injured forces personnel.

Don't agree. Where do you draw the line? What about the nurse who treats these people? The civil servants at the M o D who organise them. The compliance staff at HMRC who raise the tax to pay for it all.....

The state should support all who need it. ATOS are a private Co all they care about is getting paid not about the people they see. They will dance to the government tune as they pay the bills!

Edited by orpingtoneagle (27 Aug 2015 4.51pm)

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johnfirewall 27 Aug 15 7.38pm
100% of people die after voting Labour. It's a f***ing outrage.
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johnfirewall

27 Aug 15 7.38pm

100% of people die after voting Labour. It's a f***ing outrage.

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johnno42000 27 Aug 15 8.05pm
Surprisingly those 100% don't die within a year after voting Labour where the majority of people, who died after being told they were fit for work, died within a year of being told. All a coincidence I'm sure Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.05pm) Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.46pm) 'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'
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johnno42000

27 Aug 15 8.05pm

Surprisingly those 100% don't die within a year after voting Labour where the majority of people, who died after being told they were fit for work, died within a year of being told. All a coincidence I'm sure

Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.05pm)

Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.46pm)

'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

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on me shed son Krakow 27 Aug 15 8.27pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.49pm Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Aug 2015 4.23pm Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm It'd be foolish to say that all the deaths were due to being forced back into work, but I'd wager that a fair few are. Victim's sister: The DWP know they are killing people - Telegraph [Link] (Share from CM Browser) ATOS is a politically inspired system to reduce welfare payments. Of course there are situations where the wrong decisions have been made that have ultimately led to earlier death than would be the case. The point is.....how much responsibility is it reasonable for the state to pick up the negatives within people's lives? A hand out is a hand out and not a right in my book. The state should try to help but in my view the narrative is wrong when people expect a cradle to grave attitude. The state should only offer that kind of service to injured forces personnel. So you are an advocate of a survival of the fittest society? But it's not a question of survival of the fittest Nick. These are adults and should be looking after themselves. A government's role is to impose the rule of law and provide basic services to citizens, not paying people not to work. If people would rather kill themselves than think about working then I think that says something about our society.
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on me shed son

Krakow 27 Aug 15 8.27pm

Send a Private Message to on me shed son

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.49pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Aug 2015 4.23pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm

ATOS is a politically inspired system to reduce welfare payments.

Of course there are situations where the wrong decisions have been made that have ultimately led to earlier death than would be the case.

The point is.....how much responsibility is it reasonable for the state to pick up the negatives within people's lives?

A hand out is a hand out and not a right in my book.

The state should try to help but in my view the narrative is wrong when people expect a cradle to grave attitude.

The state should only offer that kind of service to injured forces personnel.

So you are an advocate of a survival of the fittest society?

But it's not a question of survival of the fittest Nick. These are adults and should be looking after themselves. A government's role is to impose the rule of law and provide basic services to citizens, not paying people not to work. If people would rather kill themselves than think about working then I think that says something about our society.

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johnno42000 27 Aug 15 8.30pm
Quote on me shed son at 27 Aug 2015 8.27pm Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.49pm Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Aug 2015 4.23pm Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm It'd be foolish to say that all the deaths were due to being forced back into work, but I'd wager that a fair few are. Victim's sister: The DWP know they are killing people - Telegraph [Link] (Share from CM Browser) ATOS is a politically inspired system to reduce welfare payments. Of course there are situations where the wrong decisions have been made that have ultimately led to earlier death than would be the case. The point is.....how much responsibility is it reasonable for the state to pick up the negatives within people's lives? A hand out is a hand out and not a right in my book. The state should try to help but in my view the narrative is wrong when people expect a cradle to grave attitude. The state should only offer that kind of service to injured forces personnel. So you are an advocate of a survival of the fittest society? But it's not a question of survival of the fittest Nick. These are adults and should be looking after themselves. A government's role is to impose the rule of law and provide basic services to citizens, not paying people not to work. If people would rather kill themselves than think about working then I think that says something about our society. Including mentally ill people? I think the society you suggest was tried out in the past. 'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'
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johnno42000

27 Aug 15 8.30pm

Quote on me shed son at 27 Aug 2015 8.27pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.49pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Aug 2015 4.23pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm

ATOS is a politically inspired system to reduce welfare payments.

Of course there are situations where the wrong decisions have been made that have ultimately led to earlier death than would be the case.

The point is.....how much responsibility is it reasonable for the state to pick up the negatives within people's lives?

A hand out is a hand out and not a right in my book.

The state should try to help but in my view the narrative is wrong when people expect a cradle to grave attitude.

The state should only offer that kind of service to injured forces personnel.

So you are an advocate of a survival of the fittest society?

Including mentally ill people? I think the society you suggest was tried out in the past.

'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 27 Aug 15 8.33pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm It'd be foolish to say that all the deaths were due to being forced back into work, but I'd wager that a fair few are. Victim's sister: The DWP know they are killing people - Telegraph [Link] (Share from CM Browser) I am not condoning ATOS decision making but what struck me about the story was the lack of family involvement. I know family ties generally aren't what they were but given his condition you'd think there'd be a bit more care. Also as someone else mentioned mortality rates for those on benefits is higher than average anyway. It is in fact three times higher, so whilst I don't doubt that there will have been some shocking decisions, the headline figure is at best misleading. the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 27 Aug 15 8.33pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm

I am not condoning ATOS decision making but what struck me about the story was the lack of family involvement. I know family ties generally aren't what they were but given his condition you'd think there'd be a bit more care.

Also as someone else mentioned mortality rates for those on benefits is higher than average anyway. It is in fact three times higher, so whilst I don't doubt that there will have been some shocking decisions, the headline figure is at best misleading.

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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johnno42000 27 Aug 15 8.43pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.33pm Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm It'd be foolish to say that all the deaths were due to being forced back into work, but I'd wager that a fair few are. Victim's sister: The DWP know they are killing people - Telegraph [Link] (Share from CM Browser) I am not condoning ATOS decision making but what struck me about the story was the lack of family involvement. I know family ties generally aren't what they were but given his condition you'd think there'd be a bit more care. Also as someone else mentioned mortality rates for those on benefits is higher than average anyway. It is in fact three times higher, so whilst I don't doubt that there will have been some shocking decisions, the headline figure is at best misleading. I'm sorry but 2300 of these people have died soon after being told they were fit for work. That is not a coincidence. Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.44pm) 'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'
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johnno42000

27 Aug 15 8.43pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.33pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm

I'm sorry but 2300 of these people have died soon after being told they were fit for work. That is not a coincidence.

Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.44pm)

'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 27 Aug 15 8.47pm
Quote johnno42000 at 27 Aug 2015 8.43pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.33pm Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm It'd be foolish to say that all the deaths were due to being forced back into work, but I'd wager that a fair few are. Victim's sister: The DWP know they are killing people - Telegraph [Link] (Share from CM Browser) I am not condoning ATOS decision making but what struck me about the story was the lack of family involvement. I know family ties generally aren't what they were but given his condition you'd think there'd be a bit more care. Also as someone else mentioned mortality rates for those on benefits is higher than average anyway. It is in fact three times higher, so whilst I don't doubt that there will have been some shocking decisions, the headline figure is at best misleading. I'm sorry but 2300 of these people have died soon after being told they were fit for work. That is not a coincidence. Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.44pm) Neither you or I know that. Don't confuse correlation with causation. the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 27 Aug 15 8.47pm

Quote johnno42000 at 27 Aug 2015 8.43pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.33pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm

I'm sorry but 2300 of these people have died soon after being told they were fit for work. That is not a coincidence.

Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.44pm)

Neither you or I know that. Don't confuse correlation with causation.

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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johnno42000 27 Aug 15 8.53pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.47pm Quote johnno42000 at 27 Aug 2015 8.43pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.33pm Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm It'd be foolish to say that all the deaths were due to being forced back into work, but I'd wager that a fair few are. Victim's sister: The DWP know they are killing people - Telegraph [Link] (Share from CM Browser) I am not condoning ATOS decision making but what struck me about the story was the lack of family involvement. I know family ties generally aren't what they were but given his condition you'd think there'd be a bit more care. Also as someone else mentioned mortality rates for those on benefits is higher than average anyway. It is in fact three times higher, so whilst I don't doubt that there will have been some shocking decisions, the headline figure is at best misleading. I'm sorry but 2300 of these people have died soon after being told they were fit for work. That is not a coincidence. Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.44pm) Neither you or I know that. Don't confuse correlation with causation. I know for a fact that the system is causing people to harm themselves. It is wrong and cruel and, much as some people do not want to believe, it is causing people to die. It is also a fact that 2300 people have died within a year after being told they were fit for work. Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.54pm) Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.54pm) 'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'
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johnno42000

27 Aug 15 8.53pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.47pm

Quote johnno42000 at 27 Aug 2015 8.43pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.33pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm

I'm sorry but 2300 of these people have died soon after being told they were fit for work. That is not a coincidence.

Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.44pm)

Neither you or I know that. Don't confuse correlation with causation.

I know for a fact that the system is causing people to harm themselves. It is wrong and cruel and, much as some people do not want to believe, it is causing people to die.

It is also a fact that 2300 people have died within a year after being told they were fit for work.

Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.54pm)

'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Aug 15 9.16pm
Quote johnno42000 at 27 Aug 2015 8.53pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.47pm Quote johnno42000 at 27 Aug 2015 8.43pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.33pm Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm It'd be foolish to say that all the deaths were due to being forced back into work, but I'd wager that a fair few are. Victim's sister: The DWP know they are killing people - Telegraph [Link] (Share from CM Browser) I am not condoning ATOS decision making but what struck me about the story was the lack of family involvement. I know family ties generally aren't what they were but given his condition you'd think there'd be a bit more care. Also as someone else mentioned mortality rates for those on benefits is higher than average anyway. It is in fact three times higher, so whilst I don't doubt that there will have been some shocking decisions, the headline figure is at best misleading. I'm sorry but 2300 of these people have died soon after being told they were fit for work. That is not a coincidence. Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.44pm) Neither you or I know that. Don't confuse correlation with causation. I know for a fact that the system is causing people to harm themselves. It is wrong and cruel and, much as some people do not want to believe, it is causing people to die. It is also a fact that 2300 people have died within a year after being told they were fit for work. Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.54pm) Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.54pm) Doesn't help that dwp staff are encouraged to not err on the side of caution.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 27 Aug 15 9.16pm

Quote johnno42000 at 27 Aug 2015 8.53pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.47pm

Quote johnno42000 at 27 Aug 2015 8.43pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 27 Aug 2015 8.33pm

Quote nickgusset at 27 Aug 2015 4.11pm

I'm sorry but 2300 of these people have died soon after being told they were fit for work. That is not a coincidence.

Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.44pm)

Neither you or I know that. Don't confuse correlation with causation.

I know for a fact that the system is causing people to harm themselves. It is wrong and cruel and, much as some people do not want to believe, it is causing people to die.

It is also a fact that 2300 people have died within a year after being told they were fit for work.

Edited by johnno42000 (27 Aug 2015 8.54pm)

Doesn't help that dwp staff are encouraged to not err on the side of caution.

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