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What do you actually expect from Palace?

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Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 03 Mar 21 12.23pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by HKOwen

There have been a number of very good posts on this thread so I am glad I started, and this is my final thought.

I am using collective names for the sake of ease not to deride.

The " Non Roy Out Brigade tend to put more emphasis on facts, objective issues like points etc and are free in criticising style when they don't like it.

The " Roy Out Brigade " are not fact driven and their complaints are predominantly subjective on matters of entertainment, style etc and are often like to forecast gloom and doom opinions as " facts ". i.e We will only get so many points in remaining games and this is what will happen if Roy stays .etc "

Opinions are just that so using " may ", "might", "possibly" rather than " will " might be worth considering.

Good talk

Now, positive thoughts everyone for the Manure game

Edited by HKOwen (03 Mar 2021 12.15pm)

I've said it before and will say it again, I thrive off negativity and pessimism as a Palace fan, it's just my nature, but on a contradictory note live in hope. COYP!!! I still love my team and will still be watching tonight hoping we can produce something. It's 11 vs 11 after all!

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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TheBigToePunt Flag 03 Mar 21 12.30pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

Apparently it’s impossible to spend that sort of money on a team because of FFP, which does beg the question how they and Chelsea “built” their teams.

There is absolutely no 'apparently' about it.

FFP came in well after Chelsea were transformed by Abramovich. City were the last club to be overhauled so drastically by a rich owner. In fact, some claim the regulations were bought in specifically because of those two examples.

FFP was criticized by City, and one or two others, as being an attempt to stop rich individuals transforming a smaller club through personal wealth alone, even when they were happy to do so. Their argument was that the big, established clubs were pushing for FFP so as to create a closed shop, and deny any smaller clubs the chance to suddenly compete with them. Which it does. Even if the Americans wanted to buy us a title winning team, they wouldn't be allowed.

The counterargument is that FFP stops clubs running up mad debts and relying on the whims of a rich individual who might up sticks and leave one day. Which it also does.

This guy is pretty good:

[Link]

 

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Putitout Flag Oxford 03 Mar 21 12.53pm Send a Private Message to Putitout Add Putitout as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

Ask yourself one question. If you were a young kid, new to football and excited about everything as you are at that age, why would you choose to support Palace once you have watched us play?

The world has changed I freely admit.
But back in the 1950s we couldn’t get above half way in the old division South, and helped form a division 4.
I and many other kids , back then , didn’t let quality stop us , finding every way we could to get in the ground , including under or through the fence. We chose Palace, because it was our team, for good or bad.
As for the actual gates in no time the average gate was over 20,000 per game. For fourth division football.
It is true to say though as it’s a TV world . It’s so easy for a kid to have his head turned by the mega bucks outfits. What I dont think might happen is local kids wanting to support Brighton, because they look slicker than us.

 

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herbolive Flag 03 Mar 21 1.26pm Send a Private Message to herbolive Add herbolive as a friend

What I expect, after 50 years supporting the 'Glaziers', is UPS and DOWNS. This season alone....won at Old Trafford...0-7 home to Liverpool...scoring 5 at WBA.....the Brighton win (walking on air after that one). Even in Scotland (in exile up here), people think Palace an interesting club, usually something bizarre going on. At the moment, it's being a ONE MAN club which has to come to an end.

I also expect relegation at this rate! Looking at the fixtures, we'll be lucky to get 5 points across April and May....

 


Scots for CPFC: McArthur Hopkin Freedman Cannon [most appearances ever] Queen McCormick Simpson [most goals ever]

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Stirlingsays Flag 03 Mar 21 1.34pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by herbolive

What I expect, after 50 years supporting the 'Glaziers', is UPS and DOWNS. This season alone....won at Old Trafford...0-7 home to Liverpool...scoring 5 at WBA.....the Brighton win (walking on air after that one). Even in Scotland (in exile up here), people think Palace an interesting club, usually something bizarre going on. At the moment, it's being a ONE MAN club which has to come to an end.

I also expect relegation at this rate! Looking at the fixtures, we'll be lucky to get 5 points across April and May....

38 points would probably still just about keep us up.

Fixtures are definitely tougher from here however Zaha will be back and if he stays fit I expect us to finish between 40 to 44 points.

Next season though is looking harder, unless we pull a Freedman/Popovic period of transfers.

Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Mar 2021 1.36pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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johnmcormick8 Flag Brundish 03 Mar 21 1.35pm Send a Private Message to johnmcormick8 Add johnmcormick8 as a friend

Sorry but from my experience's since 1970, progression has been our club's survival in the loadsofdosh league for longest period in our history. By lord we beat ManU away this season, last season the boy Townsend scored a worldly against M££ity. For a bunch of ragamuffins from an unfashionable part of South London we ain't doing so bad.

Originally posted by steven_t92

Sorry but you have just as much ambition as Roy - 0

What a boring way to live, I'd hate to be comfortable with just getting by each year, progression is everything and palace aren't making any. Do you think City fans 20 years ago said they were happy to be in our position????

 

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johnmcormick8 Flag Brundish 03 Mar 21 1.39pm Send a Private Message to johnmcormick8 Add johnmcormick8 as a friend

yeah could well be brother the bums rush out the trap door but you know us we could go on spawny winning spree like we care .

Originally posted by herbolive

What I expect, after 50 years supporting the 'Glaziers', is UPS and DOWNS. This season alone....won at Old Trafford...0-7 home to Liverpool...scoring 5 at WBA.....the Brighton win (walking on air after that one). Even in Scotland (in exile up here), people think Palace an interesting club, usually something bizarre going on. At the moment, it's being a ONE MAN club which has to come to an end.

I also expect relegation at this rate! Looking at the fixtures, we'll be lucky to get 5 points across April and May....

 

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Eaglecoops Flag CR3 03 Mar 21 1.46pm Send a Private Message to Eaglecoops Add Eaglecoops as a friend

Originally posted by Putitout

The world has changed I freely admit.
But back in the 1950s we couldn’t get above half way in the old division South, and helped form a division 4.
I and many other kids , back then , didn’t let quality stop us , finding every way we could to get in the ground , including under or through the fence. We chose Palace, because it was our team, for good or bad.
As for the actual gates in no time the average gate was over 20,000 per game. For fourth division football.
It is true to say though as it’s a TV world . It’s so easy for a kid to have his head turned by the mega bucks outfits. What I dont think might happen is local kids wanting to support Brighton, because they look slicker than us.

I was brought up with the, support your local team idea. Never thought any different ever since. However, we are in a different world now and I believe support will veer more and more towards the successful and entertaining teams. All that is going to happen is the big clubs are getting bigger and better supported and teams such as Palace get pushed further to the fringes.

At the end of the day fans are relatively unimportant to the clubs in the top league because their money is a drop in the ocean compared to tv and advertising rights but to teams in the lower leagues they are still the life blood, so maybe being in the top league is not the be all and end all of football as we think it is.

 

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Eaglecoops Flag CR3 03 Mar 21 2.06pm Send a Private Message to Eaglecoops Add Eaglecoops as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

There is absolutely no 'apparently' about it.

FFP came in well after Chelsea were transformed by Abramovich. City were the last club to be overhauled so drastically by a rich owner. In fact, some claim the regulations were bought in specifically because of those two examples.

FFP was criticized by City, and one or two others, as being an attempt to stop rich individuals transforming a smaller club through personal wealth alone, even when they were happy to do so. Their argument was that the big, established clubs were pushing for FFP so as to create a closed shop, and deny any smaller clubs the chance to suddenly compete with them. Which it does. Even if the Americans wanted to buy us a title winning team, they wouldn't be allowed.

The counterargument is that FFP stops clubs running up mad debts and relying on the whims of a rich individual who might up sticks and leave one day. Which it also does.

This guy is pretty good:

[Link]

Yes, I’ve done a bit of background reading on it now. In my opinion, FFP is still not helping the smaller teams compete. A very simple example. If you earn £1m per annum and you make 10% profit, that is £100,000 to reinvest. If you earn £100,000 per annum that same 10% profit is only £10,000.

If you were to translate this to the amounts we are talking about with the top six and project this over a period of time then all you are ever going to get is certain teams getting richer and others poorer.

The only way you can try and catch them up under the current system is if you have super rich owners with a long term plan rather than short term. So if our billionaires decided to invest heavily by say building an entirely new stadium at Crystal Palace which increased our annual income, then and only then would we be justified in spending additional money on players. This is a long term plan that very few investors would have the patience to adhere to and why it is unlikely that we can ever compete. As helpful as FFP is at keeping teams out of administration, it also keeps smaller teams in their place.

 

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jeeagles Flag 03 Mar 21 2.15pm

Originally posted by HKOwen

There have been a number of very good posts on this thread so I am glad I started, and this is my final thought.

I am using collective names for the sake of ease not to deride.

The " Non Roy Out Brigade tend to put more emphasis on facts, objective issues like points etc and are free in criticising style when they don't like it.

The " Roy Out Brigade " are not fact driven and their complaints are predominantly subjective on matters of entertainment, style etc and are often like to forecast gloom and doom opinions as " facts ". i.e We will only get so many points in remaining games and this is what will happen if Roy stays .etc "

Opinions are just that so using " may ", "might", "possibly" rather than " will " might be worth considering.

Good talk

Now, positive thoughts everyone for the Manure game

Edited by HKOwen (03 Mar 2021 12.15pm)

I have to say I've not seen any objective arguments put forward by people that want to keep Roy other than the fact we avoided relegation. I don't really see a strong argument to say why that's what our expectations should be limited too.

Although, I'm also disappointed by many of the critics of Roy with the level of subjectivity in there argument.

A good point has been pointed out by others is that there have been very few signs of progression on the pitch. Whilst last seasons 14th place finish was disappointing, and just above the minimum expectation other factors came into play. Particularly the refusal to play younger players, Reidewald, Meyer, Mitchell, Pierreck, Camarasa, Sorloth, AWB etc. Say what you like about the recruitment strategy, Hodgson is the leader and the buck stops with him. We don't seem to be building anything, we are just drifting. Each season is getting progressively worse, with less reason for optimism.

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 03 Mar 21 2.40pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jeeagles

I have to say I've not seen any objective arguments put forward by people that want to keep Roy other than the fact we avoided relegation. I don't really see a strong argument to say why that's what our expectations should be limited too.

Although, I'm also disappointed by many of the critics of Roy with the level of subjectivity in there argument.

A good point has been pointed out by others is that there have been very few signs of progression on the pitch. Whilst last seasons 14th place finish was disappointing, and just above the minimum expectation other factors came into play. Particularly the refusal to play younger players, Reidewald, Meyer, Mitchell, Pierreck, Camarasa, Sorloth, AWB etc. Say what you like about the recruitment strategy, Hodgson is the leader and the buck stops with him. We don't seem to be building anything, we are just drifting. Each season is getting progressively worse, with less reason for optimism.

You sound like my marriage councilor.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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TheBigToePunt Flag 03 Mar 21 2.41pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

Yes, I’ve done a bit of background reading on it now. In my opinion, FFP is still not helping the smaller teams compete. A very simple example. If you earn £1m per annum and you make 10% profit, that is £100,000 to reinvest. If you earn £100,000 per annum that same 10% profit is only £10,000.

If you were to translate this to the amounts we are talking about with the top six and project this over a period of time then all you are ever going to get is certain teams getting richer and others poorer.

The only way you can try and catch them up under the current system is if you have super rich owners with a long term plan rather than short term. So if our billionaires decided to invest heavily by say building an entirely new stadium at Crystal Palace which increased our annual income, then and only then would we be justified in spending additional money on players. This is a long term plan that very few investors would have the patience to adhere to and why it is unlikely that we can ever compete. As helpful as FFP is at keeping teams out of administration, it also keeps smaller teams in their place.

Yep, those were the same conclusion I came to, though I feel that the benefits are very much worth the disbenefits, given the utter shambles so many cowboys have left so many football clubs in.

To extend your example of one person earning £1m p/a and the next £100k, with both being able to invest only 10% of it - the further cruel twist is that the guy earning £1m not only has a far larger business than the guy on £100k (with whom he is competing), but will also grow his business not only far larger, but also far faster.

The actual sum equal to each persons 10% will grow each year as their respective businesses grow, but the rate at which the rich mans 10% grows will be far greater than the rate at which the poor mans grows, because his business is ten times larger to begin with.

Hence the situation you describe, where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. You could demonstrate therefore that the longer we stay in this league, the relatively less well off we become compared to everyone else who has been in the league as long or longer. Our position in the financial pecking order gets worse every year, not better, unless someone with more money than us makes a mess of it and goes down, and gets replaced by a smaller club than us.

The current FFP regs do play a big part in appraising what one's expectations of Palace actually are, and of seeing the clubs long term plans in context.

 

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