Name me a country with Islamic government anywhere in the world with laws in it that you would want to live in?...A country that you wouldn't mind sending your kids to for a well rounded education. I'm thinking of the future with this...about my boys.

This is the twenty first century. There should be a Islamic country somewhere where you can be yourself and say what you think without worrying about it.

I view it as very important that secularism is protected....It's important to remember that secularism doesn't have to be atheism or agnosticism. You can be religious and a secularist. Even Dawkins has called himself a secular Christian because of his fondness for its culture. No being secular is believing in the division of church and state....Keeping religion out of politics.

Now Turkey use to be held up as a Islamic country with good governance....the only one held up as one...But still not without criticisms. Importantly that governance came with a strict secular constitution that was imposed on an Islamic country....It's a long story.

Erdogan came to power on the back of Muslims voting him in..The Justice and Development Party makes no bones about the fact that it has religion at its core. Hell, it has departments dedicated to religion....and in a very sense Turkey is getting the government its majority Islamic population want.

How much is Erdogan being a Muslim down to how he's running the country? Well, it's about what type of Muslim he is...he isn't liberal or secular and unfortunately to get the top of any political tree you have to have a certain ruthlessness....If that's connected to a religion that's well known for being hyper sensitive to criticism then the traits in his governance aren't surprising.

Turkey is significantly a majority Muslim country..The government say 99 percent, though independents say it's around 90...Now that in of itself that shows what mainstream Islam does to its rivals and what space rival ideologies have....Especially outside of the cities....Still that's another question

Now I view the UK as a secular country. It has a Christian cultural tradition and many people still call themselves Christian because of it but rarely attend Church. Still Christianity was hugely affected by the rise of secularism and adapted....There are also quite a few fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam that make reform far easier for mainstream Christianity. Still Christianity did it and so you'd think Islam could but its reformers need a lot more help than they get.

I hold out hope that mainstream Islam can reform itself. But the signs from say the PEW data isn't hopeful. I view reform as vital with the knowledge of the significantly higher birth rates of Muslims.

Islam must reform and become secular in Britain or I fear for the problems ahead for my kids.

I back the critics of mainstream Islam like Nawaz, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Harris, Darwins, Maher and many others....I may differ with all of them on certain aspects but they all highlight the issues that people like you minimize.

As you seem to like the Huffington Post so much here is a link to a open letter written to moderate Muslims by a secular Muslim - Ali A. Rizvi

[Link]

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Apr 2017 3.21am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

An interesting article with some good points.
However, I'm not sure a great reformation will happen in the near future at least.

That's not to say that it shouldn't be an ultimate aim though.

But we are talking about the here and now. Demonising all Muslims (I'm not accusing anyone here of doing so, but it's obvious there are those that do, isn't going to help push a reformation. Insidious xenophobic headlines aren't going to help either.
You say people like me are part of the problem? How? by getting on with our lives and getting on with whoever I cross paths with. Should I be saying to every Muslim I meet 'you are not doing enough to push for a quasi secular reformation of your religion?'
Meanwhile, Every drone attack on Isis / Taliban / whoever (however justified the mission) that involves civilian casualties is a potential recruitment tool for radicalisation.
Every islamophobic headline, comment, ignorant thought said out loud or posted online is a tool for radicalisation.

I've never heard you refer to the problems within mainstream Islam....I've read you mentioning the right calling them 'cunds' and the extreme right but nothing on the clear problems that the pew data shows us for example within the Islamic community regarding apostates, homosexuals, women, support for sharia.

What's the right thing to do in my view...I don't think it's hard....take the lead from that letter for example and Islamic reformers. Like reformers say it shouldn't be a problem to criticise bad ideas wherever they come from.

The name calling that goes on whenever someone does this though just adds to a culture of silence. In general people are reluctant to get involved in this debate because they are negatively conditioned by the response...which is...'oh you are xenophobic', 'Islamophobic' or so on...we saw the name calling with legal just a few posts back. We even get the dreaded 'racist' stuff from some which doesn't even make sense. It's this stuff which caused the unprofessional response to gang rapes...This thought policing is cancerous.

Sure some people are just rejectionist and view Islam as unwanted and alien and it's hard to see how an imported religion with occasional radical attacks is in anyway a benefit to them...despite the media and politicians constantly telling them it is. I think these people are sometimes misguided in their criticisms myself..some more than others... but are treated really badly regardless of whether they are fair or unfair. Obviously those that attack Muslims or damage their property are criminals and those that are abusive aren't helping anyone.

It should be easy to tell between fair and unfair criticism of Islam. There's nothing wrong in criticizing the critic if they deserve it. But accusing them of negative intentions without dealing with the issues they raise isn't a response in good faith.

No, there is no point moaning at individual Muslims about the problems within the general message. The work has to be done at Mosque level and has to see the government give reformers like Nawaz the power to design the message and then we have to close down mosques that won't use it.

Well, that's my rather simplistic view on it...I'm open to whatever works basically.

Is this going to happen?...I doubt it...even the conservatives are so PC on this that inaction is the preferred option. You rarely get blamed for inaction...Especially with controversial stuff that upsets people...especially a minority that has a small subset within it willing to murder others.

Would it work? I don't know as obviously it's going to be viewed as interference and not 'true Islam' but without a more liberal reformed Islam I just don't see how as the population percent increases how the problems are going to reduce.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Apr 2017 12.42pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Not agreeing with a religion that doesn't preach equality and also hates on gays is a very liberal thing to do. The pakistan Islamic council said it's ok to lightly beat your wife. I disagree with that.

I realise that I've rattled on about this a lot.

I'm going to shut up now as even I am getting fed up with the number of times I've typed out the word 'Islam' these last few days.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Is there a racial profile of offenders detailed anywhere. You've hypothesised, why don't you find out then make a reasoned remark/conclusion based on facts rather than conjecture. I don't know if you are right or wrong, and to be fair, I bet you don't either.

If not it's lazy Muslim bashing.