Also, you sound like a bit of a nutcase so am wanting to vote 'in' even more now than i did one hour ago

Edited by Kermit8 (11 Apr 2016 6.38pm)

"those that cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

If and when Europe breaks up we will, one year in the middle to distant future, go to war again. Let's not hasten that probable inevitability, shall we?

Edited by Kermit8 (11 Apr 2016 7.17pm)

Ever increasing numbers of military personnel are disputing the "IN" campaign’s scaremongering about the EU and national security. They know that it is NATO, which has kept the peace in Europe and NOT the EU.

Those voting to stay have a bad case of EU-bola/ Brussels Syndrome....they've been captive for so long that they have lost any independent spirit they once had. They are political sheep. I am sad for them. They aren't what helped kick the industrial revolution into gear, they aren't the type of people who fought for democracy (no, they're not, because they're not doing it now) and they aren't thinking of the impact their lack of intuition will have on future generations. They are two types of people: the fundamentally misled, and the fundamentally immoral.

Indeed, half of them are just that - misled. I can handle this sort, they believe by voting to stay they ARE doing the right thing, and they genuinely feel confused. It's so frustrating, because there's nothing confusing about it. Use your intuition, ask yourself the big questions, and you will arrive at the right decision. The other half however, and they know who they are, are those harbouring their own selfish interests and to hell with the consequences for everyone else, they say! You know the sort, the hideously tanned ex-pat on a beach in Spain who hates England yet all of a sudden professes his love for the country (nowt to do with healthcare, of course). They talk of 'jobs', being 'stronger together' and 'the economy,' and they enjoy dragging people down into the detail because they know it goes nowhere fast. Like idiots, they drag you down to their level and will beat you with experience. That sort of person isn't worth the dripping off my nose. They will have to live with their choice, and I only hope they leave this world after they see the damage they have done to the lives of today's children, and not before.

But my message to fellow Brexiters is this: don't get wound up (as I have before) with those who will place their own interests above the moral choice. They will do what they wish to do, and they care not for your democratic birthright. They cannot care, because democracy, whatever they say, is what this referendum is all about. It is nothing to do with jobs, 'togetherness', the environment or intelligence sharing (that's my personal favourite)... it is about the broad, overarching principle upon which any decent, liberal society is built....that of having self-determination and direct representation. It is an inalienable right which will be severely undermined by anyone who votes to stay. There is no legitimate counter-argument to this. Not one. Nothing is more important than our right to fair representation, and remaining in the EU will only weaken that right. I do hope to god no one is bold enough to argue that basic, largely-accepted point.

Democracy is ALL anyone should concern themselves with when it comes to this vote. It overrides everything, for everyone. Ignore the so-called 'facts' which no one knows of and use your goddamned instincts, like an actual person with an innate sense of justice and reason. I think it was Kant who described the Enlightenment as 'having the courage to use your own reason'. I'd listen to Kant, and not Cameron, if I were you.

Edited by SwalecliffeEagle (11 Apr 2016 5.49pm)

Christ, you've got it in for me haven't you...

I'm pleased for you, but I have a child due in October, so what's your point?

So that's your grand reply, is it? I expected one, but I expected better than that. You call democracy the 'little picture'? I'll leave others to judge that cracker!

I totally agree that economic integration is conducive to peace and you're gonna have to trust me (because I don't want to be boring) that I have as solid a grasp as you of the origins of European integration (which lie in the 1920s, by the way). But where you and I differ is that you say: 'the EU is necessary to prevent war'....whereas I say 'The ECC was once necessary to prevent war'. I'm sad you cannot make such a basic distinction between the two organisations, and it is to my child and your grandchildren's detriment that you do.

Peace is not owed to the EU, it is owed to global economic integration. If you think that will for peace which exists in the civilised world will dissipate because we leave the EU, and as such we will go to war with our European neighbours...then that really is the pits of all logic. Definitely more Kermit than Kant, I'd say. The conditions under which we went to war do not exist in Europe today. None of that is down to the EUROPEAN UNION. I don't know if you're aware, but that's what we're voting for. The world is integrated whether we like it or not, and no referendum will change that. And, in case you haven't noticed, war ravages the world over, still, today. Your picture isn't really a picture at all, so much as it is a false reality based on a misunderstanding of historical nuances. But anyway, if you know anything about history, you will know that Empires ALWAYS crumble in the end. So, good luck with that.

Edited by SwalecliffeEagle (11 Apr 2016 6.34pm)