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Southgate (Hodgson Lite) on his way

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TheBigToePunt Flag 22 Jun 21 10.08am Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

This thread has picked up a fair bit of speed for a subject with no substance behind it whatsoever.

 

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sydtheeagle Flag England 22 Jun 21 10.42am Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Originally posted by topcat

He was a very good player for us and from memory did well at Villa and 'Boro. Did well at England U21 level and has, so far, done ok at England senior level. Unless England are humiliated in the next round (possible but unlikely), he will still be our manager into the next World Cup next year.

I think he's make a good manager for Palace but it's not happening any time soon.

I think there's some overstatement there, personally. His first real season as an emerging youth player at Palace, in midfield (not centre back) was arguably his best. When he moved into the middle of defense he was a very solid, competent player but hardly a spectacular one. In his partnership with Cookie at centre half, Cookie was very much the better of the two.

Southgate as a player was, as I said, competent. He did the simple things very well, he played to his strengths, his positional judgment was excellent, and he used his head to avoid making mistakes. That he got a fair number of England caps was probably a reflection of the era in which he played rather than his timeless greatness as a player. Don't get me wrong; I'm not knocking him. But to pretend he was top-notch in any real sense is wrong. He was an above-average player who squeezed every ounce out of his natural ability. And he got a lot of respect for that; the sort of player managers love having around.

Perhaps not surprisingly, Southgate the manager has been much like Southgate the player. His intelligence makes him attractive to both the media and the FA. He's reliable and diligent. His sides generally punch their weight (but not above it). I wouldn't in a million years diminish the World Cup Semi-Final achievement but let's be honest, he got wildly lucky with the draw. His real triumph in Russia was rebranding the England side into something the public found palatable after years in the media wilderness. With regard to his coming to Palace (I think it highly, highly unlikely) I don't find the idea appealing though doubtless we could do worse. At best, as manager in my view Southgate is a pound shop Roy; similar in many ways, but without the experience and long track record of success.

Edited by sydtheeagle (22 Jun 2021 10.43am)

Edited by sydtheeagle (22 Jun 2021 10.43am)

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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doombear Flag Too far from Selhurst Park 22 Jun 21 11.02am Send a Private Message to doombear Add doombear as a friend

Originally posted by sydtheeagle

I think there's some overstatement there, personally. His first real season as an emerging youth player at Palace, in midfield (not centre back) was arguably his best. When he moved into the middle of defense he was a very solid, competent player but hardly a spectacular one. In his partnership with Cookie at centre half, Cookie was very much the better of the two.

Southgate as a player was, as I said, competent. He did the simple things very well, he played to his strengths, his positional judgment was excellent, and he used his head to avoid making mistakes. That he got a fair number of England caps was probably a reflection of the era in which he played rather than his timeless greatness as a player. Don't get me wrong; I'm not knocking him. But to pretend he was top-notch in any real sense is wrong. He was an above-average player who squeezed every ounce out of his natural ability. And he got a lot of respect for that; the sort of player managers love having around.

Perhaps not surprisingly, Southgate the manager has been much like Southgate the player. His intelligence makes him attractive to both the media and the FA. He's reliable and diligent. His sides generally punch their weight (but not above it). I wouldn't in a million years diminish the World Cup Semi-Final achievement but let's be honest, he got wildly lucky with the draw. His real triumph in Russia was rebranding the England side into something the public found palatable after years in the media wilderness. With regard to his coming to Palace (I think it highly, highly unlikely) I don't find the idea appealing though doubtless we could do worse. At best, as manager in my view Southgate is a pound shop Roy; similar in many ways, but without the experience and long track record of success.

Edited by sydtheeagle (22 Jun 2021 10.43am)

Edited by sydtheeagle (22 Jun 2021 10.43am)


Excellent post Syd. That's basically how I see him as well.

 

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silvertop Flag Portishead 22 Jun 21 1.21pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

This thread has picked up a fair bit of speed for a subject with no substance behind it whatsoever.

Message boards, eh?

Possibly connected with the Euros..?

 

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sydtheeagle Flag England 23 Jun 21 11.05am Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Message boards, eh?

Possibly connected with the Euros..?

The more interesting thing to me is that Southgate seems to have little connection with Palace since his departure. You know, there are plenty of former players who clearly identify with the club even if they were here for only a portion of their career (Darren Ambrose is a good example). But Southgate rarely talks about Palace, he clearly doesn't see us as a fond part of his career, he doesn't pick our players at all even when they're good enough (AWB is the obvious example), so other than the fact that he played a few games for us once, there's really no reason to think he'd want to come back to Palace even if was intending to move into club management. My guess is that if anything, Southgate has negative memories of the club. Remember, he was (and still is) very, very close to Alan Smith whose departure from Palace was acrimonious to say the least. In 1994/95 when it all fell apart, Southgate was very much a bystander while his mentor was (arguably) sold down the river by the chairman. That can't have enamoured him to the club. So personally, I think the Southgate to Palace idea is a non-starter for many reasons that go beyond just the fact that it's invented speculation anyway.

Edited by sydtheeagle (23 Jun 2021 11.07am)

Edited by sydtheeagle (23 Jun 2021 11.07am)

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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silvertop Flag Portishead 23 Jun 21 2.49pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Yes. The only thing I think I remember him saying about the club was how poor the attendances were when we were going trough [another] really bleak period.

Chris Coleman - another who does not exactly gush about the club notwithstanding how high he was (past tense) held by supporters.

 

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sydtheeagle Flag England 23 Jun 21 4.44pm Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Yes. The only thing I think I remember him saying about the club was how poor the attendances were when we were going trough [another] really bleak period.

Chris Coleman - another who does not exactly gush about the club notwithstanding how high he was (past tense) held by supporters.

It's strange though because that's revisionist history. Southgate's first year, the atmosphere was fantastic. We stormed to promotion scoring goals at pace. The following year in the Prem was "difficult" but we reached the semi-finals of both Cups and we weren't out of the fight to stay up until late on. If you were at either Cup Semi final it's laughable to say we didn't have support. Again, the atmosphere most of that season, until Chris sparked up and Alan and Ron fell out, was great and if it became toxic later on, it was still atmospherically so. Bottom line is that for whatever reason, players from those years don't collectively seem to have much fondness for the club possibly excepting Richard Shaw. By the way, not that it's remotely relevant, but Eddie McGoldrick is coaching at the University of Northampton these days, if anyone cares.

Edited by sydtheeagle (23 Jun 2021 4.46pm)

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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Helmet46 Flag Croydon 24 Jun 21 5.57am Send a Private Message to Helmet46 Add Helmet46 as a friend

Originally posted by sydtheeagle

It's strange though because that's revisionist history. Southgate's first year, the atmosphere was fantastic. We stormed to promotion scoring goals at pace. The following year in the Prem was "difficult" but we reached the semi-finals of both Cups and we weren't out of the fight to stay up until late on. If you were at either Cup Semi final it's laughable to say we didn't have support. Again, the atmosphere most of that season, until Chris sparked up and Alan and Ron fell out, was great and if it became toxic later on, it was still atmospherically so. Bottom line is that for whatever reason, players from those years don't collectively seem to have much fondness for the club possibly excepting Richard Shaw. By the way, not that it's remotely relevant, but Eddie McGoldrick is coaching at the University of Northampton these days, if anyone cares.

Edited by sydtheeagle (23 Jun 2021 4.46pm)

I think this is right and I reckon it could be why I have such a downer on the bloke. As a player he was OK - that’s it. Average if you will.
As a manager - I think he’s poor. I find myself willing us to go a goal down so he’ll have to use his attacking players to go forwards rather than play that dull, slow, plodding sideways and backwards s***e.
He speaks well but it’s as though he has erased Palace from his history. In fact I think he’s erased that he was once a player from his history, full stop.

Zaha, for example, was never going to get a shout and AWB the same. If we unearth any other gems will he watch them or bother? Doubtful. It strikes me he has that “yeah but has he ever done it at a BIG club” tosh in his head. Let’s not forget Grealish doesn’t get anywhere near the game time he should and he plays for another of his old clubs.

I think you’re right about players from that era and the lack of fondness for the club - must have been more behind closed doors than we were aware of?

Edited by Helmet46 (24 Jun 2021 6.03am)

 

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sydtheeagle Flag England 24 Jun 21 9.30am Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Originally posted by Helmet46

I think you’re right about players from that era and the lack of fondness for the club - must have been more behind closed doors than we were aware of?

Edited by Helmet46 (24 Jun 2021 6.03am)

There was a lot going on behind closed doors that season, some of which I was more aware of than average but obviously some not. "ITK" is always a qualified term. In brief, my read based on what I know is that when Alan Smith took over from Coppell, it gave us continuity and, as it turned out, it was an extremely good hire. That first season in the Championship he bedded in a lot of younger players (Southgate, Ricky Newman, Dean Gordon, Cookie, and on the fringes Bobby Bowry and others) with considerable success. Smith was a father figure to a lot of those guys as he'd developed their careers over a long period from youth to first team at Palace and that team was extremely loyal to him personally, not the club itself. They still are. Southgate and Smith remain close even now, all those years later.

The start (1-6 vs. Liverpool) of the season after promotion was tough but in October and November, hallmarked by the 4-1 win away at Coventry (anyone remember Ricky Newman's rocket goal?) followed by a comfortable win over Ipswich at home plus progress in the League Cup saw us move up the table and things looked pretty rosy. Then, Chris Armstrong had his spliff, Noades and Smith fell out spectacularly over a wide range of issues, and over the Christmas and January period the running of the club came apart at the seams.

Smith and Noades were both high-maintenance, big-ego personalities and in his handling of the situation over various issues, Noades got things very, very wrong (like him or not, Noades mostly got the tough calls right but this one he didn't). Basically, unfair as it would have been he should have fired Smith because as a chairman if you're not going to back your manager then you're asking for trouble if you keep him around. But noting the supporters generally loved Smith as much as the players did, Noades left him in place while, destructively, undermining and briefing against him behind the scenes and in the media. This created an absolutely toxic atmosphere within the club, and a group of players totally loyal to the manager but not the club itself. Predictably, with that sort of working environment, in the end we went down even though in my view we were (just about) good enough to stay up. Noades carries a fair amount of the blame for that. More than Smith.

After relegation, the club changed radically. Smith left and a lot of players left with him; a new generation (Dougie, Hopkin, then Andy Roberts) and others arrived that summer. And all-in-all, we emerged successful again getting promoted back to the Premiership a couple of years later. We bought shrewdly; I remember the first pre-season game away at Dean Court; it was immediately obviously that Hoppy and Dougie, neither of whom was really a "big name" signing, were class. That was Noades all over; he knew how find quality in the lower divisions or at a low price.

But it all needn't have happened if Noades and Smith had resolved their differences, got on the same page, and the chairman had supported the manager the season before. Truth is, if that had happened, with the young players we had (proved by the careers many of them subsequently had elsewhere) we'd probably have become an embedded Premier League side a lot earlier than we did.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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Helmet46 Flag Croydon 24 Jun 21 1.55pm Send a Private Message to Helmet46 Add Helmet46 as a friend

Originally posted by sydtheeagle

There was a lot going on behind closed doors that season, some of which I was more aware of than average but obviously some not. "ITK" is always a qualified term. In brief, my read based on what I know is that when Alan Smith took over from Coppell, it gave us continuity and, as it turned out, it was an extremely good hire. That first season in the Championship he bedded in a lot of younger players (Southgate, Ricky Newman, Dean Gordon, Cookie, and on the fringes Bobby Bowry and others) with considerable success. Smith was a father figure to a lot of those guys as he'd developed their careers over a long period from youth to first team at Palace and that team was extremely loyal to him personally, not the club itself. They still are. Southgate and Smith remain close even now, all those years later.

The start (1-6 vs. Liverpool) of the season after promotion was tough but in October and November, hallmarked by the 4-1 win away at Coventry (anyone remember Ricky Newman's rocket goal?) followed by a comfortable win over Ipswich at home plus progress in the League Cup saw us move up the table and things looked pretty rosy. Then, Chris Armstrong had his spliff, Noades and Smith fell out spectacularly over a wide range of issues, and over the Christmas and January period the running of the club came apart at the seams.

Smith and Noades were both high-maintenance, big-ego personalities and in his handling of the situation over various issues, Noades got things very, very wrong (like him or not, Noades mostly got the tough calls right but this one he didn't). Basically, unfair as it would have been he should have fired Smith because as a chairman if you're not going to back your manager then you're asking for trouble if you keep him around. But noting the supporters generally loved Smith as much as the players did, Noades left him in place while, destructively, undermining and briefing against him behind the scenes and in the media. This created an absolutely toxic atmosphere within the club, and a group of players totally loyal to the manager but not the club itself. Predictably, with that sort of working environment, in the end we went down even though in my view we were (just about) good enough to stay up. Noades carries a fair amount of the blame for that. More than Smith.

After relegation, the club changed radically. Smith left and a lot of players left with him; a new generation (Dougie, Hopkin, then Andy Roberts) and others arrived that summer. And all-in-all, we emerged successful again getting promoted back to the Premiership a couple of years later. We bought shrewdly; I remember the first pre-season game away at Dean Court; it was immediately obviously that Hoppy and Dougie, neither of whom was really a "big name" signing, were class. That was Noades all over; he knew how find quality in the lower divisions or at a low price.

But it all needn't have happened if Noades and Smith had resolved their differences, got on the same page, and the chairman had supported the manager the season before. Truth is, if that had happened, with the young players we had (proved by the careers many of them subsequently had elsewhere) we'd probably have become an embedded Premier League side a lot earlier than we did.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.


Wow, what an interesting read - thanks. I have never been close to anyone that would really know what goes on in the club. Used to chat to Keith Millen (we coached his Son for a while) but would never have asked him anything nor would he have told, even if I did.
Just goes to show how much tends to be kept behind closed doors (rightly so) which is why I won’t believe this manager stuff until I see him posing with SP and holding a shirt with his name on the back!

 

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braunstoneagle Flag the middle of bumf*** nowhere... 25 Jun 21 8.47pm Send a Private Message to braunstoneagle Add braunstoneagle as a friend

all you need to do is watch, or remember the 93-94 season review, and you will understand how good he was as a player, he carries that team as a kid.

the goal against pompey will always be one of my favourites alongside AJ’s van bastan effort at walsall away.

 


‘Football isn’t instant coffee. You have to work at it. You must grow the bean, grind it.’ Ian Holloway


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deleted 25 Flag 26 Jun 21 7.23am

Southgates assistant Chris Powell thought was a good manager

Did well at Charlton. Started his career with us

Had some tough jobs at lower league clubs but obviously Southgate rates him.

Lives locally, not at another club so no poaching or comp to pay

 

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