This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In
nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Jun 16 4.15pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by blackpalacefan
and we'll be seeing lots of swivel eyes leavers once it dawns on them that freedom of movement is likely to remain. Then everyone can be swivel eyed together. Like this?
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Hrolf The Ganger 27 Jun 16 4.19pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by blackpalacefan
and we'll be seeing lots of swivel eyes leavers once it dawns on them that freedom of movement is likely to remain. Then everyone can be swivel eyed together. And that will cause all the resentment and friction that the remain camp wanted to blame on the "xenophobic leavers". If people feel they left the EU for nothing there will be a backlash not seen in recent history.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 27 Jun 16 4.25pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by DivingIsNotGood
Do you realise it's the government that have to plan exit, not leave camp? So glad we got out when we did [Link] Yes in theory you are correct but when the current government were Remain (by definition as the PM was Remain) then the leave need some sort of coherent plan. As I said, you will find many leavers who at the end of this process wonder why they bothered because their particular issue with the EU has not been addressed. Whether that be immigration, trade, regulations etc.
Edited by Y Ddraig Goch (27 Jun 2016 4.46pm)
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
-TUX- Alphabettispaghetti 27 Jun 16 4.32pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by ex hibitionist
basically all I'm saying is 'I don't know' so I played safe and with all its problems voted in - if you know what we should do next great - but nobody does, lots of opinion not a lot of substance, if you don't know don't pretend to, and what I'm getting from leavers much more often than not is strong opinion with sketchy half-baked fact and that's not enough to make the leap we just have. I don't know either (as you say, who does?) but i voted out due to all it's problems. Nothing ventured nothing gained i guess.
Time to move forward together. |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Jun 16 4.37pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Mr Palaceman
I don't believe that... If it was all about immigration then UKIP would have done much better at the last election but they did sh!te. It's a big issue but not the main reason for many. I think, on the whole, it was more about the nature of the EU itself being an undemocratic, money wasting organisation, with no obvious chance of anyone reforming it. We may, even now, see the free movement of workers remaining but perhaps without anyone having an automatic right to come here to claim on the welfare state. I think without the EU Freedom of Movement, that Remain would have easily come out on top in the referendum. Which is actually the current situation anyhow. The only migrants to the UK with automatic rights to welfare are Asylum Applicants, who get that because they are forbidden by law from working. Granted there is some provision in the welfare state for NHS access, education (if they're children), emergency services etc. But you have to have been employed for a period of time to obtain access to benefit payments (which Cameron got extended from 3 years to 4 years). So after four years, they're entitled to unemployment benefit, based on the NI contributions. But I see no problem with that, as they've made NI contributions (and in another year would be eligible for UK citizenship).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Jun 16 4.42pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch
Yes in theory you are correct but when the current government were Remain (by definition as the PM was Remain) then the Remain need some sort of coherent plan. As I said, you will find many leavers who at the end of this process wonder why they bothered because their particular issue with the EU has not been addressed. Whether that be immigration, trade, regulations etc.
I think any government will struggle to legitimise its leave strategy without subjecting manifestos and policy to a General Election. The issue really isn't whether a personal issue has been redressed, but that democratic process has been applied. Its important to remember as well that there will be more general elections, for people to try to pursue those issues. There will most likely only be the one referendum on EU membership in their lifetime (ok maybe one more). With a remain vote, those issues, would likely be impossible to have addressed again in their lifetime. Plus if everything goes balls up, s**t f**ked crazy totally disaster cock, we can always join the EU, as a somewhat chastened and reduced entity.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 27 Jun 16 4.53pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think any government will struggle to legitimise its leave strategy without subjecting manifestos and policy to a General Election. The issue really isn't whether a personal issue has been redressed, but that democratic process has been applied. Its important to remember as well that there will be more general elections, for people to try to pursue those issues. There will most likely only be the one referendum on EU membership in their lifetime (ok maybe one more). With a remain vote, those issues, would likely be impossible to have addressed again in their lifetime. Plus if everything goes balls up, s**t f**ked crazy totally disaster cock, we can always join the EU, as a somewhat chastened and reduced entity. You might be right, I suppose some of that is dependent on who the Tories elect. If they want an General Election they should hurry uip and get on with it but that is fraught with danger. Farage telling anyone who will listen that he won it and he should be leading negotiations, in fact I think I read that yesterday. UKIP could win a lot of seats, too many for either of the main parties to form a majority. Then there's the SNP question......... It is still very early days, it will be a week or so befroe we get a real handle on things. The EU leader meeting over the next couple of days will give some indication of how they see negotiations panning out. The UK are chairing the EU from July 2017 so will be chairing the exit the meetings at a key point. Quite amusing really. Personally I think Cameron played a blinder on Friday.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
blackpalacefan 27 Jun 16 4.54pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
And that will cause all the resentment and friction that the remain camp wanted to blame on the "xenophobic leavers". If people feel they left the EU for nothing there will be a backlash not seen in recent history.
The irony is that for us to avoid 'freedom of movement' as a given we will likely need the EU to try to wreck any decent deal our government tries to sign up too. In that scenario yes we'll be further removed from europe and can probably have more say over immigration. the economy will take a hit though so we'll get lots of guff from our government about how we need significant numbers to stablise the economy and back to square one. it'll be the same as it is now but with people disliking each other a little bit more. if we had a proportional voting systen that would perhaps open the door for more people power so to speak. i bet the government dont regret the result of referendum as much as they regret offering it in the first place. Edited by blackpalacefan (27 Jun 2016 4.56pm)
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Hrolf The Ganger 27 Jun 16 5.08pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by blackpalacefan
if we had a proportional voting systen that would perhaps open the door for more people power so to speak. i bet the government dont regret the result of referendum as much as they regret offering it in the first place. Edited by blackpalacefan (27 Jun 2016 4.56pm) I agree entirely. However, the Tories will not just be negotiating for Britain but for their political future. The only way the electorte will apply pressure is by voting against the main parties. UKIP will potentially do very well out of this. The government and Labour need to recognise what is at stake for them based on the swell of resentment in middle England as demonstrated by the referendum result.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Rudi Hedman Caterham 27 Jun 16 5.08pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by ex hibitionist
we're not in the Euro or Schengen - Cameron struck an admittedly unratified deal that we would be exempt from further integration and that immigrants would not be allowed to get welfare after they had contributed through income tax for several years. There is no 'club' that doesn't like 'us'. Boris and co will be negotiating for what we have NOW - he wants the single market which means free movement of people. If he wants to cut immigration he has to do it to non EU nationals. there was no 'progressive federalism or out'choice - I don't like the EU as an undemocratic force that is screwing Greece, and railroading integration too quickly, but are a lot of these problems are down to the crash not the EU and the EU has subsidised weaker economies massively and most people understand that that is a general benefit which increases consumer spending and our trade. We had the best of all worlds and we've just thrown it away for an abyss of uncertainty - a lot of leavers will give a massive sigh of relief if we renogotiate our way back into the single market - which will inevitably mean similar levels of EU migration to what we have. Where's the sense in that? Sorry I can't see it. The problem countries are experiencing economically are because they haven't practised fiscal discipline and the EU haven't monitored it either. They didn't know or care about tax evasion in Greece and looked the other way when the books were cooked by Goldman Sachs when joining the Eurozone. They are now punishing them whilst anyone with capital and transferable skills and probably untaxed Euros in their overseas bank accounts have left the country. It stinks, but the fallout won't end there. There will be more and the whole union will crumble. We're better off out. And I don't know where you get We had the best of all worlds.
COYP |
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
chris123 hove actually 27 Jun 16 5.09pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by blackpalacefan
The irony is that for us to avoid 'freedom of movement' as a given we will likely need the EU to try to wreck any decent deal our government tries to sign up too. In that scenario yes we'll be further removed from europe and can probably have more say over immigration. the economy will take a hit though so we'll get lots of guff from our government about how we need significant numbers to stablise the economy and back to square one. it'll be the same as it is now but with people disliking each other a little bit more. if we had a proportional voting systen that would perhaps open the door for more people power so to speak. i bet the government dont regret the result of referendum as much as they regret offering it in the first place. Edited by blackpalacefan (27 Jun 2016 4.56pm) I agree that EEA carries the 4 freedoms - but going the WTO route doesn't.
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
blackpalacefan 27 Jun 16 5.15pm | |
---|---|
Originally posted by chris123
I agree that EEA carries the 4 freedoms - but going the WTO route doesn't. i know that, but the tarrifs are very significant plus we'd lose access to the single market. That would be a worry for london, as we are the go to trading centre on account of our access to the single market. i can't see the government gambling at any cost to the economy when they personally dont even care about freedom of movement and the country is pretty much split down the centre on the issue. the only way we'll end up under WTO is if the EU tries to force us own that route, so hilariously we'd have them to thank for it rather than our own politicians. this from just now: Rating agency Fitch has said the victory by the “Leave” campaign could damage the Britain's status as a banking hub. The agency also said most sectors would likely see less growth and lower investments due to the uncertainty about future trade arrangements. "The UK's status as a major international banking hub could be damaged as some business lines shift to the EU. Higher import costs and pressure on exports due to the potential imposition of tariffs would be broadly negative for corporates." Edited by blackpalacefan (27 Jun 2016 5.19pm)
|
|
Alert a moderator to this post |
Registration is now on our new message board
To login with your existing username you will need to convert your account over to the new message board.
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2024 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.