The Election Thread

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The Election Thread

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W12 07 Nov 19 3.03pm
Originally posted by Jway89 Fair enough. I believe you are in the minority, but that's the beauty of democracy, you can vote for the party that wants to abolish socialised programs like the NHS or pensions. Yeah, I didn't say I would want to abolish the NHS or state pensions (although I think at least the latter may be wise). You just can't have a huge welfare state and mass immigration at the same time.
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W12 07 Nov 19 3.03pm

Originally posted by Jway89

Fair enough. I believe you are in the minority, but that's the beauty of democracy, you can vote for the party that wants to abolish socialised programs like the NHS or pensions.

Yeah, I didn't say I would want to abolish the NHS or state pensions (although I think at least the latter may be wise).

You just can't have a huge welfare state and mass immigration at the same time.

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CrazyBadger Ware 07 Nov 19 3.12pm
Originally posted by chris123 The last thing we need is another referendum. The last Parliament was a disgrace and should go down in history for its utter failure to do as instructed. Think that's a little harsh. The last Parliament was a disgrace, but not because they failed to deliver it..As I've mentioned previously, the problem with Brexit is That none of the MPs wanted it. To get any 'Deal' through that appeases the majority was gonna be tough. Then the Tory's went and fecked it even more by messing up the last election, and not getting a majority. (although I'm not sure even that would have helped!) It was a disgrace because they gave us the choice in the first place! A Tory ploy to win an election, which backfired on them monumentally. "It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"
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CrazyBadger

Ware 07 Nov 19 3.12pm

Originally posted by chris123

The last thing we need is another referendum. The last Parliament was a disgrace and should go down in history for its utter failure to do as instructed.

Think that's a little harsh. The last Parliament was a disgrace, but not because they failed to deliver it..As I've mentioned previously, the problem with Brexit is That none of the MPs wanted it. To get any 'Deal' through that appeases the majority was gonna be tough.

Then the Tory's went and fecked it even more by messing up the last election, and not getting a majority. (although I'm not sure even that would have helped!)
It was a disgrace because they gave us the choice in the first place! A Tory ploy to win an election, which backfired on them monumentally.

"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

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Deleted11 07 Nov 19 3.15pm
Originally posted by W12 Yeah, I didn't say I would want to abolish the NHS or state pensions (although I think at least the latter may be wise). You just can't have a huge welfare state and mass immigration at the same time. It's a bit like Brexit though. You either want socialism (whatever % that may be) or you don't. Immigration by itself isn't the problem. Are there welfare cheats? of course there are, but I have yet to see welfare spend causing a crisis like 2008, or any recession for that matter. Integration s key, now, is there a conversation where integration could potentially affect the rights of citizens, then of course there is and the question should always be; Is it in the social/public interest to take away a right? I still remember David Cameron saying on TV, very proud of himself, that immigration from outside the EU was 51% of total immigration. So, the immigration they could control, the failed at. The main issue is that we are not a manufacturing country, so the unskilled labour we used to rely on is not needed anymore.
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Deleted11 07 Nov 19 3.15pm

Originally posted by W12

Yeah, I didn't say I would want to abolish the NHS or state pensions (although I think at least the latter may be wise).

You just can't have a huge welfare state and mass immigration at the same time.

It's a bit like Brexit though. You either want socialism (whatever % that may be) or you don't.

Immigration by itself isn't the problem. Are there welfare cheats? of course there are, but I have yet to see welfare spend causing a crisis like 2008, or any recession for that matter.

Integration s key, now, is there a conversation where integration could potentially affect the rights of citizens, then of course there is and the question should always be; Is it in the social/public interest to take away a right?

I still remember David Cameron saying on TV, very proud of himself, that immigration from outside the EU was 51% of total immigration. So, the immigration they could control, the failed at.

The main issue is that we are not a manufacturing country, so the unskilled labour we used to rely on is not needed anymore.

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Stirlingsays 07 Nov 19 3.16pm
Originally posted by CrazyBadger It was a disgrace because they gave us the choice in the first place! That's kind of what a democracy is. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

07 Nov 19 3.16pm

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

It was a disgrace because they gave us the choice in the first place!

That's kind of what a democracy is.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Deleted11 07 Nov 19 3.19pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays That's kind of what a democracy is. You will know better than me. If we No Deal out of the EU. Is there anything in place to stop another referendum on us entering again?
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Deleted11 07 Nov 19 3.19pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

That's kind of what a democracy is.

You will know better than me. If we No Deal out of the EU.
Is there anything in place to stop another referendum on us entering again?

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Stirlingsays 07 Nov 19 3.26pm
Originally posted by Jway89 It's a bit like Brexit though. You either want socialism (whatever % that may be) or you don't. Immigration by itself isn't the problem. Are there welfare cheats? of course there are, but I have yet to see welfare spend causing a crisis like 2008, or any recession for that matter. Integration s key, now, is there a conversation where integration could potentially affect the rights of citizens, then of course there is and the question should always be; Is it in the social/public interest to take away a right? I still remember David Cameron saying on TV, very proud of himself, that immigration from outside the EU was 51% of total immigration. So, the immigration they could control, the failed at. The main issue is that we are not a manufacturing country, so the unskilled labour we used to rely on is not needed anymore. Too much empathy killed my country. It's too late already....For me the EU vote was for a principle....in reality the threshold on immigration was reached back in the eighties. The future is increasing balkanization culturally and physically...via methods like segregation by house price and hence area. Conflict amongst working class communities when there is no longer anywhere to go....higher crime rates in areas that never saw that level before...all to come. Lower trust communities and a much less socially cohesive society than what I grew up in. We have the folly of idealogs and fools to blame but now most of them are dead.....I've often had the argument that globalisation was and is inevitable but in truth countries like Japan....and essentially everywhere wealthy outside Europe and the States have proven otherwise. Too much empathy. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Nov 2019 3.29pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

07 Nov 19 3.26pm

Originally posted by Jway89

It's a bit like Brexit though. You either want socialism (whatever % that may be) or you don't.

Immigration by itself isn't the problem. Are there welfare cheats? of course there are, but I have yet to see welfare spend causing a crisis like 2008, or any recession for that matter.

I still remember David Cameron saying on TV, very proud of himself, that immigration from outside the EU was 51% of total immigration. So, the immigration they could control, the failed at.

The main issue is that we are not a manufacturing country, so the unskilled labour we used to rely on is not needed anymore.

Too much empathy killed my country.

It's too late already....For me the EU vote was for a principle....in reality the threshold on immigration was reached back in the eighties.

The future is increasing balkanization culturally and physically...via methods like segregation by house price and hence area.

Conflict amongst working class communities when there is no longer anywhere to go....higher crime rates in areas that never saw that level before...all to come.

Lower trust communities and a much less socially cohesive society than what I grew up in.

We have the folly of idealogs and fools to blame but now most of them are dead.....I've often had the argument that globalisation was and is inevitable but in truth countries like Japan....and essentially everywhere wealthy outside Europe and the States have proven otherwise.

Too much empathy.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Nov 2019 3.29pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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CrazyBadger Ware 07 Nov 19 3.29pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays That's kind of what a democracy is. yes, but we've done the democracy bit by voting for them in the first place. I'm pretty sure they get paid for making these kind of decisions and furthermore are the ones that should be making these decisions as they are best placed to make them. To place such a big decision in the hands of the ill-informed and easily swayed public(myself included!) was the disgrace. "It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"
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CrazyBadger

Ware 07 Nov 19 3.29pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

That's kind of what a democracy is.

To place such a big decision in the hands of the ill-informed and easily swayed public(myself included!) was the disgrace.

"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

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W12 07 Nov 19 3.34pm
Originally posted by Jway89 It's a bit like Brexit though. You either want socialism (whatever % that may be) or you don't. Immigration by itself isn't the problem. Are there welfare cheats? of course there are, but I have yet to see welfare spend causing a crisis like 2008, or any recession for that matter. Integration s key, now, is there a conversation where integration could potentially affect the rights of citizens, then of course there is and the question should always be; Is it in the social/public interest to take away a right? I still remember David Cameron saying on TV, very proud of himself, that immigration from outside the EU was 51% of total immigration. So, the immigration they could control, the failed at. The main issue is that we are not a manufacturing country, so the unskilled labour we used to rely on is not needed anymore. You ain't seen nothing yet
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W12 07 Nov 19 3.34pm

Originally posted by Jway89

It's a bit like Brexit though. You either want socialism (whatever % that may be) or you don't.

Immigration by itself isn't the problem. Are there welfare cheats? of course there are, but I have yet to see welfare spend causing a crisis like 2008, or any recession for that matter.

I still remember David Cameron saying on TV, very proud of himself, that immigration from outside the EU was 51% of total immigration. So, the immigration they could control, the failed at.

The main issue is that we are not a manufacturing country, so the unskilled labour we used to rely on is not needed anymore.

You ain't seen nothing yet

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Stirlingsays 07 Nov 19 3.35pm
Originally posted by CrazyBadger yes, but we've done the democracy bit by voting for them in the first place. I'm pretty sure they get paid for making these kind of decisions and furthermore are the ones that should be making these decisions as they are best placed to make them. To place such a big decision in the hands of the ill-informed and easily swayed public(myself included!) was the disgrace. ? You are making lots of assumptions about the future.....none of which you can know and then assuming that politicians can. Parliament isn't some unconnected actor in this....Many MPs end up working in the EU or accepting pay from their groups......In fact this can be said about most of our establishment. They have been coining it from the EU for decades and the average tax payers have been footing the bill. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

07 Nov 19 3.35pm

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

yes, but we've done the democracy bit by voting for them in the first place.
I'm pretty sure they get paid for making these kind of decisions and furthermore are the ones that should be making these decisions as they are best placed to make them.

To place such a big decision in the hands of the ill-informed and easily swayed public(myself included!) was the disgrace.

You are making lots of assumptions about the future.....none of which you can know and then assuming that politicians can.

Parliament isn't some unconnected actor in this....Many MPs end up working in the EU or accepting pay from their groups......In fact this can be said about most of our establishment. They have been coining it from the EU for decades and the average tax payers have been footing the bill.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Deleted11 07 Nov 19 3.36pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Too much empathy killed my country. It's too late already....For me the EU vote was for a principle....in reality the threshold on immigration was reached back in the eighties. The future is increasing balkanization culturally and physically...via methods like segregation by house price and hence area. Conflict amongst working class communities when there is no longer anywhere to go....higher crime rates in areas that never saw that level before...all to come. Lower trust societies. We have the folly of idealogs and fools to blame but now most of them are dead.....I've often had the argument that globalisation was and is inevitable but in truth countries like Japan....and essentially everywhere wealthy outside Europe and the States have proven otherwise. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Nov 2019 3.28pm) And I think you reach the heart of the issue right there. This isn't necessarily a left or right thing, as I think we would be right here in the same place if we had either or running the Country. That is why you get Brexit, but that is also why yu get Corbyn. Its all good calling Brexiteers idiots and Labour voters Marxists, etc (Not a dig at you btw) but there is very little acknowledgement of ho we got here.
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Deleted11 07 Nov 19 3.36pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Too much empathy killed my country.

It's too late already....For me the EU vote was for a principle....in reality the threshold on immigration was reached back in the eighties.

The future is increasing balkanization culturally and physically...via methods like segregation by house price and hence area.

Conflict amongst working class communities when there is no longer anywhere to go....higher crime rates in areas that never saw that level before...all to come.

Lower trust societies.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Nov 2019 3.28pm)

And I think you reach the heart of the issue right there. This isn't necessarily a left or right thing, as I think we would be right here in the same place if we had either or running the Country.

That is why you get Brexit, but that is also why yu get Corbyn. Its all good calling Brexiteers idiots and Labour voters Marxists, etc (Not a dig at you btw) but there is very little acknowledgement of ho we got here.

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Deleted11 07 Nov 19 3.38pm
Originally posted by W12 You ain't seen nothing yet I'll hold my breath for that then. There's another crisis coming and guess what it's gonna be those pesky bankers again, and again, they'll be bailed out.
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Deleted11 07 Nov 19 3.38pm

Originally posted by W12

You ain't seen nothing yet

I'll hold my breath for that then.

There's another crisis coming and guess what it's gonna be those pesky bankers again, and again, they'll be bailed out.

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Stirlingsays 07 Nov 19 3.43pm
Originally posted by Jway89 And I think you reach the heart of the issue right there. This isn't necessarily a left or right thing, as I think we would be right here in the same place if we had either or running the Country. That is why you get Brexit, but that is also why yu get Corbyn. Its all good calling Brexiteers idiots and Labour voters Marxists, etc (Not a dig at you btw) but there is very little acknowledgement of ho we got here. Yep....Essentially I view this as a 'European' mentality issue. For the right increased immigration was for economics and keeping wages down, for the left it was about empathy and votes. The result is the same, we can say Blair accelerated it all but it was happening anyway. Egalitarianism has merit at the individual and charity level....it doesn't work running a country. Long term we are fecked. By the way.....I'm still available for parties and birthday celebrations. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Nov 2019 3.45pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

07 Nov 19 3.43pm

Originally posted by Jway89

And I think you reach the heart of the issue right there. This isn't necessarily a left or right thing, as I think we would be right here in the same place if we had either or running the Country.

Yep....Essentially I view this as a 'European' mentality issue. For the right increased immigration was for economics and keeping wages down, for the left it was about empathy and votes.

The result is the same, we can say Blair accelerated it all but it was happening anyway.

Egalitarianism has merit at the individual and charity level....it doesn't work running a country.

Long term we are fecked.

By the way.....I'm still available for parties and birthday celebrations.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Nov 2019 3.45pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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