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Stirlingsays Flag 27 Apr 17 8.10pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Kermit8

No, you blind double doofus. He asked who is "objecting to fellow muslim extremists?" You know - the killers??? IS?

By not embroiling themselves in Wahhabism nor attacking The West the rest of Islam is objecting.

So I answered him. You are just too ridden by paranoia and faux nationalism in these interesting times to understand that.

Edited by Kermit8 (27 Apr 2017 7.59pm)

Absurd logic....whatever.

The data on people voting for Sharia is there.

I seriously recommend you research Islamic reformers.

Whatever, but whenever you repeat this lie and I'm around to read it I'm going to give the actual truth out about the views within that community.

Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Apr 2017 8.11pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 27 Apr 17 8.18pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Kermit8

er..I am not into giving my enemies what they want. In this case: knicker wetting paranoia. Are you related to Neville Chamberlain?

I'm not into caring about what my enemies want.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 27 Apr 17 8.21pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

I'll take that as a confession of guilt.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 27 Apr 17 8.23pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I'll take that as a confession of guilt.

[Link]

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 27 Apr 17 8.37pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

How very BBS of you.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

 

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davenotamonkey Flag 27 Apr 17 11.12pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Originally posted by m/k mick

What really concerns me is that when we have a situation, Iraq war, right wing biggots etc, we have demonstration rightly objecting to the extremism, how often do you see muslims organising marches, demonstrayptions, objecting to fellow muslim extremists, saying not in our name, this ,lack of objection leads many to assume that rightly or wrongly, many muslims actualy support the extremism, obviously there are many who do not support the idiots, but how many?

Just one example:

[Link]

From a poll of 1,000:

"Half (49%) believe Muslim clerics preaching that violence against the west can be justified are out of touch with mainstream Muslim opinion, while 45% disagree."

"One in four (27%) British Muslims say they have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris."

"..two thirds (68%) say acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet can never be justified while a quarter (24%) disagree."

From a poll of 3,000:
[Link]

26% believe "extremist views don't exist" in Muslim communities (p.64)

On sharia law, "43% said they supported this proposition, whereas 22% opposed it" (p.43)

Plenty more statistics like those. The "peaceful majority" are irrelevant.

[Link]

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 27 Apr 17 11.35pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Just one example:

[Link]

From a poll of 1,000:

"Half (49%) believe Muslim clerics preaching that violence against the west can be justified are out of touch with mainstream Muslim opinion, while 45% disagree."

"One in four (27%) British Muslims say they have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris."

"..two thirds (68%) say acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet can never be justified while a quarter (24%) disagree."

From a poll of 3,000:
[Link]

26% believe "extremist views don't exist" in Muslim communities (p.64)

On sharia law, "43% said they supported this proposition, whereas 22% opposed it" (p.43)

Plenty more statistics like those. The "peaceful majority" are irrelevant.

[Link]


Why didn't you embolden the word 'some'. To me that could mean 'I can see why they did it given feelings about depictions of our prophet, athough I don't agree with them carrying out the attack' Too ambiguous to be definitive.
Why didn't you include these from your first link?
More than two in five (46%) feel that being a Muslim in Britain is difficult due to prejudice against Islam.

Almost all Muslims living in Britain feel a loyalty to the country (95%). Just 6% say they feel a disloyalty.

Nine in ten (93%) British Muslims believe that Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws.

Selective copy and paste from the second link, which I've copied and pasted with what the report says rather than cherry picked snippets...

Amongst the most important findings from the research are the fact that:

British Muslims undoubtedly comprise a more religiously devout sub-set of
the UK population. This is reflected in personal assessments of an individual’s
own level of devotion and in the fact that an overwhelming majority identify
with their mosque and see it as representing their views (71%).

A heightened sense of religious devotion manifests in a clear social
conservatism on some issues. This was reflected, for example, in high levels
of support for gender segregated education (40% supported this proposal,
as compared to just 11% of the general population), as well as ‘traditional’
religious clothing within schools (44% supported the idea that schools should
be able to insist on the hijab or niqab).

There are relatively large levels of support among British Muslims for the
implementation of elements of Sharia law; however, the nature of that support
is quite ‘soft’. Whilst a plurality of people expressed a preference for such
measures ‘in the abstract’, they were far less forthcoming in supporting them
‘in reality’. (Only 4% of those surveyed said that they used Sharia banking, for
instance, and 55% said that they would not prefer to use this option). It should
also be noted that younger Muslims
were relatively less likely than their
older counterparts to endorse Sharia.

It is clear that the more religious
character and general social
conservatism of British Muslim
communities, does not detract from
the essentially secular character of most Muslim lifestyles. In terms of their
everyday concerns and priorities, British Muslims answer no differently from
their non-Muslim neighbours. When asked what are the most important issues
facing Britain today (people were allowed to give three responses), the most
likely answer was NHS/hospitals/healthcare (36%), with unemployment
second (32%) and then immigration (30%). Contrary to what is often asserted on both sides of the political spectrum, the priorities and everyday
concerns of the overwhelming majority of Muslims are inherently secular.

Religious devotion and social conservatism do not correlate to political radicalism.
It is striking that British Muslims are more likely, as a group, to condemn various
acts of political violence (and even non-violent political protest), than the UK
population as a whole. 89% of Muslim respondents condemned the use of
violence in political protest and 90% condemned terrorism; in both instances,
just 2% of people expressed sympathy for such actions (for the population as a
whole, the equivalent figures were 5% and 4%).

When probed specifically on the question of crime, it is striking that the
issue British Muslims identified as being of greatest importance within local
areas was that of ‘alcohol and drug abuse’. This, as well as other essentially
non-sectarian, ‘law and order’ issues (such as ‘minor street crime’) were
deemed to be of greater concern than harassment on the basis of religion,
race or ethnicity. In tackling these problems, a majority of British Muslims
expressed support for straight-forward law and order policies such as the
provision of extra police on the beat (55%) and the provision of security
cameras (30%).

A clear majority of British Muslims (69%) favour an essentially secular
education, which adheres to a shared national curriculum. Only a minority
(26%) believe that the school classroom is the best place for faith education,
believing instead that faith should be taught at home, or in the mosque.

British Muslims tend to be among the more active and engaged members of
British social and political life. They vote in elections, make use of local social
and cultural amenities, and see the value of social and political engagement.

In terms of the manner of that engagement, it is clear that only a minority
of British Muslims (just 20%) see themselves as being represented by those
organisations that claim to speak for their community. Moreover, within that
cohort, there is no single group that can plausibly claim to speak for more
than 20% of people who are so-minded. In each case, therefore, supporters
represent
a fraction of a fraction
of the wider community. Putatively national
representative organisations are no such thing. Groups like the Muslim
Council of Britain enjoy the support of between 2 to 4% of Britain’s Muslims –
and when one goes outside London, that level of support is vanishingly small.

British Muslims overwhelmingly believe that Britain is a good place in which
to practice their religion. 91% feel able to follow Islam in Britain entirely
freely; just 7% said that they could only ‘partly’ practice their faith freely; and
only 2% said they could not practise it at all

(apologies for the crap formatting, one of the joys of c+p from a pdf )


From the 3rd links description
Jesus Christ is the only way unto salvation. The only way to God the Father. Unlike Mohammed/Baal-Allah and the plethora of other works-based false religions HE never asked his followers to kill, threaten, intimidate, destroy, rape, pillage etc, etc. He doesn't sell paradise on the back of murder and self-destruction. You cannot earn life eternal through works, good deeds or bad. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can one know God. Jesus Christ said to love one's enemies, to feed them, to care for them and to pray for their salvation. Praise HIM!! Trust HIM!!! Love HIM!! Amen! so if you don't mind I'll take that with a pinch of salt.

Edited by nickgusset (27 Apr 2017 11.36pm)

 

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Rubin Flag 28 Apr 17 12.22am Send a Private Message to Rubin Add Rubin as a friend

The Pew data makes for some interesting reading:

[Link]

 

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davenotamonkey Flag 28 Apr 17 12.58am Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Originally posted by nickgusset


Why didn't you embolden the word 'some'. To me that could mean 'I can see why they did it given feelings about depictions of our prophet, athough I don't agree with them carrying out the attack' Too ambiguous to be definitive.
Why didn't you include these from your first link?
More than two in five (46%) feel that being a Muslim in Britain is difficult due to prejudice against Islam.

Almost all Muslims living in Britain feel a loyalty to the country (95%). Just 6% say they feel a disloyalty.

Nine in ten (93%) British Muslims believe that Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws.

Selective copy and paste from the second link, which I've copied and pasted with what the report says rather than cherry picked snippets...

Amongst the most important findings from the research are the fact that:

British Muslims undoubtedly comprise a more religiously devout sub-set of
the UK population. This is reflected in personal assessments of an individual’s
own level of devotion and in the fact that an overwhelming majority identify
with their mosque and see it as representing their views (71%).

A heightened sense of religious devotion manifests in a clear social
conservatism on some issues. This was reflected, for example, in high levels
of support for gender segregated education (40% supported this proposal,
as compared to just 11% of the general population), as well as ‘traditional’
religious clothing within schools (44% supported the idea that schools should
be able to insist on the hijab or niqab).

There are relatively large levels of support among British Muslims for the
implementation of elements of Sharia law; however, the nature of that support
is quite ‘soft’. Whilst a plurality of people expressed a preference for such
measures ‘in the abstract’, they were far less forthcoming in supporting them
‘in reality’. (Only 4% of those surveyed said that they used Sharia banking, for
instance, and 55% said that they would not prefer to use this option). It should
also be noted that younger Muslims
were relatively less likely than their
older counterparts to endorse Sharia.

It is clear that the more religious
character and general social
conservatism of British Muslim
communities, does not detract from
the essentially secular character of most Muslim lifestyles. In terms of their
everyday concerns and priorities, British Muslims answer no differently from
their non-Muslim neighbours. When asked what are the most important issues
facing Britain today (people were allowed to give three responses), the most
likely answer was NHS/hospitals/healthcare (36%), with unemployment
second (32%) and then immigration (30%). Contrary to what is often asserted on both sides of the political spectrum, the priorities and everyday
concerns of the overwhelming majority of Muslims are inherently secular.

Religious devotion and social conservatism do not correlate to political radicalism.
It is striking that British Muslims are more likely, as a group, to condemn various
acts of political violence (and even non-violent political protest), than the UK
population as a whole. 89% of Muslim respondents condemned the use of
violence in political protest and 90% condemned terrorism; in both instances,
just 2% of people expressed sympathy for such actions (for the population as a
whole, the equivalent figures were 5% and 4%).

When probed specifically on the question of crime, it is striking that the
issue British Muslims identified as being of greatest importance within local
areas was that of ‘alcohol and drug abuse’. This, as well as other essentially
non-sectarian, ‘law and order’ issues (such as ‘minor street crime’) were
deemed to be of greater concern than harassment on the basis of religion,
race or ethnicity. In tackling these problems, a majority of British Muslims
expressed support for straight-forward law and order policies such as the
provision of extra police on the beat (55%) and the provision of security
cameras (30%).

A clear majority of British Muslims (69%) favour an essentially secular
education, which adheres to a shared national curriculum. Only a minority
(26%) believe that the school classroom is the best place for faith education,
believing instead that faith should be taught at home, or in the mosque.

British Muslims tend to be among the more active and engaged members of
British social and political life. They vote in elections, make use of local social
and cultural amenities, and see the value of social and political engagement.

In terms of the manner of that engagement, it is clear that only a minority
of British Muslims (just 20%) see themselves as being represented by those
organisations that claim to speak for their community. Moreover, within that
cohort, there is no single group that can plausibly claim to speak for more
than 20% of people who are so-minded. In each case, therefore, supporters
represent
a fraction of a fraction
of the wider community. Putatively national
representative organisations are no such thing. Groups like the Muslim
Council of Britain enjoy the support of between 2 to 4% of Britain’s Muslims –
and when one goes outside London, that level of support is vanishingly small.

British Muslims overwhelmingly believe that Britain is a good place in which
to practice their religion. 91% feel able to follow Islam in Britain entirely
freely; just 7% said that they could only ‘partly’ practice their faith freely; and
only 2% said they could not practise it at all

(apologies for the crap formatting, one of the joys of c+p from a pdf )


From the 3rd links description
Jesus Christ is the only way unto salvation. The only way to God the Father. Unlike Mohammed/Baal-Allah and the plethora of other works-based false religions HE never asked his followers to kill, threaten, intimidate, destroy, rape, pillage etc, etc. He doesn't sell paradise on the back of murder and self-destruction. You cannot earn life eternal through works, good deeds or bad. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can one know God. Jesus Christ said to love one's enemies, to feed them, to care for them and to pray for their salvation. Praise HIM!! Trust HIM!!! Love HIM!! Amen! so if you don't mind I'll take that with a pinch of salt.

Edited by nickgusset (27 Apr 2017 11.36pm)

Why didn't I include "blah, blah, blah..."? Because, you simpleton, I am responding to this post:

[Link]

..and specifically to the question "obviously there are many who do not support the idiots, but how many?". You think I should just copy and paste the entire report here, you f***wit? I'm reporting the relevant findings. The post didn't ask "hey, I wonder if Muslims feel loyal to Britain". Moreover, if you cannot see the obvious caveats with "British muslims should obey the law" and ANY of the emboldened text, you are an idiot.

And, yeah: very aware of the aversion to alcohol thing. Gays too.

[Link]

Meanwhile, you hilariously criticise the youtube uploader comments, but make no mention of the content itself. On searching for it in youtube that was the first link to come up. Go fish, Gusset - there are links to the same segment there with 17 million views, some with nearly 5 million views:

[Link]

You're welcome to critique each and every one of the users that uploaded that video, but you don't critique the actual video itself. You intellectually bankrupt lobotomy.

So, yeah OK. You're suggesting there isn't a problem then. Cute. Or maybe that it's overblown. The evidence, and the blood in the many many streets of cities across Europe and the UK suggest otherwise.

You people make me sick. This won't be the last thread we create on the atrocities perpetuated in the name of this sky-fairy, and it won't be the last time you reel out your usual apologetics and deflections.

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 28 Apr 17 7.24am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Sometimes with Nick you just have to headpalm.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 28 Apr 17 7.38am

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Why didn't I include "blah, blah, blah..."? Because, you simpleton, I am responding to this post:

[Link]

..and specifically to the question "obviously there are many who do not support the idiots, but how many?". You think I should just copy and paste the entire report here, you f***wit? I'm reporting the relevant findings. The post didn't ask "hey, I wonder if Muslims feel loyal to Britain". Moreover, if you cannot see the obvious caveats with "British muslims should obey the law" and ANY of the emboldened text, you are an idiot.

And, yeah: very aware of the aversion to alcohol thing. Gays too.

[Link]

Meanwhile, you hilariously criticise the youtube uploader comments, but make no mention of the content itself. On searching for it in youtube that was the first link to come up. Go fish, Gusset - there are links to the same segment there with 17 million views, some with nearly 5 million views:

[Link]

You're welcome to critique each and every one of the users that uploaded that video, but you don't critique the actual video itself. You intellectually bankrupt lobotomy.

So, yeah OK. You're suggesting there isn't a problem then. Cute. Or maybe that it's overblown. The evidence, and the blood in the many many streets of cities across Europe and the UK suggest otherwise.

You people make me sick. This won't be the last thread we create on the atrocities perpetuated in the name of this sky-fairy, and it won't be the last time you reel out your usual apologetics and deflections.

Personal abuse. Great.

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 28 Apr 17 7.47am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

There's a lot in Nick's pdf cut and paste job summary that rings true to my personal experiences with Muslims.....though you get a sense from the text that they are trying to play down any concerns...I doubt they would be doing this if the survey were about say far right groups....Anyway in my experience of working with Muslims I've found most are pretty socially conservative, though often hypocritical, attached to their mosque and group, and that some of them (the less worrying ones) don't really know much about their own religion....though that last point is probably true of most people brought up in religion.

The problem with people like Nick and Kermy is that they aren't spending much time listening to Islamic reformers and instead seem to be parroting pretty detached and stupid approaches from 'progressive' left wing thought which has already done quite a bit of damage in society....the responses to gang rapes for example....wholly attributable to their ideology of playing down the issues.

Essentially what Sam Harris says about his group is correct in my experience. Around about 85 percent of them.....while they might have unsettling views on some things aren't going to be very political or seriously religious is a troubling way.

Whereas about 15 percent (with variations in different countries) are a problem and until apologists start to realise the error of their ways then society isn't really going to tackle this problem without discord.....and hence the delay and problem will just continue to grow going forward.....Some of them telling the rest of us that we just have to 'live with it' isn't good enough.

Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz recently wrote a book together.... Islam and the Future of Tolerance: A Dialogue.....People like Nick and Kermy should read it...perhaps then we wouldn't then have to listen to ignorance and denial of this very real and significant problem turned up to eleven.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Apr 2017 7.49am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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