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nhp61 Goring-By-Sea born, now in Brackne... 18 Nov 12 11.31pm
Israel has a history of very aggressive and heavy handed retaliation. Hamas would have had a very good idea of what the reaction would be when they launched a couple of rockets at Israel. The way Israel is reacting is nothing out of the ordinary, so the blame should be Hamas's for stirring up a hornet's nest. Siting their launchers in residential areas is inevitably going to lead to civilian casualties because the Israelis would want to remove the rocket threat, which is exactly what Hamas knew was going to happen. The only way to stop this would be for all parties to sit around a table, put their hatred and distrust of each other to one side and negotiate a settlement to which they will all agree and abide by. Can't see it happening, though...
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nhp61

Goring-By-Sea born, now in Brackne... 18 Nov 12 11.31pm

Israel has a history of very aggressive and heavy handed retaliation. Hamas would have had a very good idea of what the reaction would be when they launched a couple of rockets at Israel.

The way Israel is reacting is nothing out of the ordinary, so the blame should be Hamas's for stirring up a hornet's nest.

Siting their launchers in residential areas is inevitably going to lead to civilian casualties because the Israelis would want to remove the rocket threat, which is exactly what Hamas knew was going to happen.

The only way to stop this would be for all parties to sit around a table, put their hatred and distrust of each other to one side and negotiate a settlement to which they will all agree and abide by.

Can't see it happening, though...

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Bert the Head Epsom 18 Nov 12 11.34pm
Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 10.06pm Quote Bert the Head at 18 Nov 2012 10.01pm Quote The Sash at 18 Nov 2012 9.22pm Quote Bert the Head at 18 Nov 2012 9.09pm Quote The Sash at 18 Nov 2012 7.49pm Quote Kermit8 at 18 Nov 2012 7.38pm They do this every few years. Kill scores of civilian Palestinians - a lot of them childen - in retaliation for two or three deaths on their side in the guise of fighting terror. It suits them to murder. Keeps the status quo. It also perpetuates hatred. So the wheel is ever turning. Fvcked up in the head government in Tel Aviv. Rabin was the last reasonable one in power. His own side murdered him. Because he wanted to make things better. An axis of evil. Not quite true Kerms. Rockets are routinely fired onto Israels civilians and given that all of Israels neighbours are quite open in their desire to wipe Israel and Israelis off the map and Israel are quite prepared to act quickly and not really worred about whats proportionate and whats not to try and apportion 'blame' when anything kicks off is pretty moot imho. Israels backing by the US, its disregard for territorial rights dont do anything to help the situation either nor does the rhetoric about martyrs and martyrdom and sabre rattling from Hamas at every opportunity A conflict that will never end in our lifetime I find it ironic that everyone keeps banging on about "Israels neighbours are quite open in their desire to wipe Israel and Israelis off the map" but isn't that exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestianians?" Just because you dont fawn over the poor oppressed Palestinians it doesnt automatically make you a supporter of Israel. The fact Israel has enemies on all sides of its border does give a wee clue to understanding their (over) reaction and hard arsed stance though surely ???? I don't understand why Israel continues to be seen as the injured party when they continue to ignore the UN ruling that they return to the '67 border (didn't we invade Iraq for ignoring a UN ruling?) and herd the Palastinians into quasi concentration camps. Yes. You really don't understand. The Palestinian leadership rejected the partition of Palestine in 1947 culminating in the Arab-Israeli war in 48. [/quote You are having a bubble. 1967 borders take into account 1948 and the acceptance of the state of Israel. 1967 is bigger. Its a chronological thing if you think about it.
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Bert the Head

Epsom 18 Nov 12 11.34pm

Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 10.06pm

Quote Bert the Head at 18 Nov 2012 10.01pm

Quote The Sash at 18 Nov 2012 9.22pm

Quote Bert the Head at 18 Nov 2012 9.09pm

Quote The Sash at 18 Nov 2012 7.49pm

Quote Kermit8 at 18 Nov 2012 7.38pm

They do this every few years. Kill scores of civilian Palestinians - a lot of them childen - in retaliation for two or three deaths on their side in the guise of fighting terror.

It suits them to murder. Keeps the status quo. It also perpetuates hatred. So the wheel is ever turning. Fvcked up in the head government in Tel Aviv. Rabin was the last reasonable one in power. His own side murdered him. Because he wanted to make things better.

An axis of evil.

Not quite true Kerms. Rockets are routinely fired onto Israels civilians and given that all of Israels neighbours are quite open in their desire to wipe Israel and Israelis off the map and Israel are quite prepared to act quickly and not really worred about whats proportionate and whats not to try and apportion 'blame' when anything kicks off is pretty moot imho.

Israels backing by the US, its disregard for territorial rights dont do anything to help the situation either nor does the rhetoric about martyrs and martyrdom and sabre rattling from Hamas at every opportunity

A conflict that will never end in our lifetime

I find it ironic that everyone keeps banging on about
"Israels neighbours are quite open in their desire to wipe Israel and Israelis off the map" but isn't that exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestianians?"

Just because you dont fawn over the poor oppressed Palestinians it doesnt automatically make you a supporter of Israel.

The fact Israel has enemies on all sides of its border does give a wee clue to understanding their (over) reaction and hard arsed stance though surely ????

I don't understand why Israel continues to be seen as the injured party when they continue to ignore the UN ruling that they return to the '67 border (didn't we invade Iraq for ignoring a UN ruling?) and herd the Palastinians into quasi concentration camps.

Yes. You really don't understand. The Palestinian leadership rejected the partition of Palestine in 1947 culminating in the Arab-Israeli war in 48.
[/quote

You are having a bubble. 1967 borders take into account 1948 and the acceptance of the state of Israel. 1967 is bigger. Its a chronological thing if you think about it.

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Jonny_Johnson Tel Aviv 18 Nov 12 11.35pm
Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.53pm Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 10.34pm Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.25pm Quote BobRoberts at 18 Nov 2012 9.36pm Israel heavy handed surely only to anti Semites? If the UK had 'only 61 deaths' in the last 5 years from Belgium / Dutch etc rockets I would hope we invade, most propel would, but why is it less of a reason when it's Jewish deaths??, 61 deaths in nearly 12 years and we are not occupying what they perceive to be their land. We do not control their borders, airspace, territorial waters, tax revenues and government functions via regular military incursions. What occupation are you referring to? Gaza was returned some years back (thereafter converted into a rocket-launching agriculture). Airspace and waters are controlled by Israel in order to ensure that Gaza does not become the bigger weapons stockpile depot that it already is. The Gazans are free to leave from the Egyptian border any time that they want. Perhaps you can offer your services to the Israeli government in an advisory capacity. I was referring to the wider region but for the record the UN consider Israel still to be the occupying power. If the Israeli Government wants my advice and I would be willing to assist. The same UN that elected Libya, Syria and China among others, as chairs of the Commission on Human Rights. Glorious institution. "Just because it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, doesn't necessarily mean it is a duck."
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Jonny_Johnson

Tel Aviv 18 Nov 12 11.35pm

Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.53pm

Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 10.34pm

Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.25pm

Quote BobRoberts at 18 Nov 2012 9.36pm

Israel heavy handed surely only to anti Semites?

If the UK had 'only 61 deaths' in the last 5 years from Belgium / Dutch etc rockets I would hope we invade, most propel would, but why is it less of a reason when it's Jewish deaths??,

61 deaths in nearly 12 years and we are not occupying what they perceive to be their land. We do not control their borders, airspace, territorial waters, tax revenues and government functions via regular military incursions.

What occupation are you referring to? Gaza was returned some years back (thereafter converted into a rocket-launching agriculture). Airspace and waters are controlled by Israel in order to ensure that Gaza does not become the bigger weapons stockpile depot that it already is. The Gazans are free to leave from the Egyptian border any time that they want. Perhaps you can offer your services to the Israeli government in an advisory capacity.

I was referring to the wider region but for the record the UN consider Israel still to be the occupying power.

If the Israeli Government wants my advice and I would be willing to assist.

The same UN that elected Libya, Syria and China among others, as chairs of the Commission on Human Rights. Glorious institution.

"Just because it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, doesn't necessarily mean it is a duck."

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Bert the Head Epsom 18 Nov 12 11.38pm
Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 11.35pm Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.53pm Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 10.34pm Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.25pm Quote BobRoberts at 18 Nov 2012 9.36pm Israel heavy handed surely only to anti Semites? If the UK had 'only 61 deaths' in the last 5 years from Belgium / Dutch etc rockets I would hope we invade, most propel would, but why is it less of a reason when it's Jewish deaths??, 61 deaths in nearly 12 years and we are not occupying what they perceive to be their land. We do not control their borders, airspace, territorial waters, tax revenues and government functions via regular military incursions. What occupation are you referring to? Gaza was returned some years back (thereafter converted into a rocket-launching agriculture). Airspace and waters are controlled by Israel in order to ensure that Gaza does not become the bigger weapons stockpile depot that it already is. The Gazans are free to leave from the Egyptian border any time that they want. Perhaps you can offer your services to the Israeli government in an advisory capacity. I was referring to the wider region but for the record the UN consider Israel still to be the occupying power. If the Israeli Government wants my advice and I would be willing to assist. The same UN that elected Libya, Syria and China among others, as chairs of the Commission on Human Rights. Glorious institution. "Just because it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, doesn't necessarily mean it is a duck." The same UN that was good enough when we needed a mandate to invade Iraq.
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Bert the Head

Epsom 18 Nov 12 11.38pm

Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 11.35pm

Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.53pm

Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 10.34pm

Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.25pm

Quote BobRoberts at 18 Nov 2012 9.36pm

Israel heavy handed surely only to anti Semites?

If the UK had 'only 61 deaths' in the last 5 years from Belgium / Dutch etc rockets I would hope we invade, most propel would, but why is it less of a reason when it's Jewish deaths??,

I was referring to the wider region but for the record the UN consider Israel still to be the occupying power.

If the Israeli Government wants my advice and I would be willing to assist.

The same UN that elected Libya, Syria and China among others, as chairs of the Commission on Human Rights. Glorious institution.

"Just because it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, doesn't necessarily mean it is a duck."

The same UN that was good enough when we needed a mandate to invade Iraq.

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Jonny_Johnson Tel Aviv 18 Nov 12 11.42pm
Quote Bert the Head at 18 Nov 2012 11.38pm Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 11.35pm Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.53pm Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 10.34pm Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.25pm Quote BobRoberts at 18 Nov 2012 9.36pm Israel heavy handed surely only to anti Semites? If the UK had 'only 61 deaths' in the last 5 years from Belgium / Dutch etc rockets I would hope we invade, most propel would, but why is it less of a reason when it's Jewish deaths??, 61 deaths in nearly 12 years and we are not occupying what they perceive to be their land. We do not control their borders, airspace, territorial waters, tax revenues and government functions via regular military incursions. What occupation are you referring to? Gaza was returned some years back (thereafter converted into a rocket-launching agriculture). Airspace and waters are controlled by Israel in order to ensure that Gaza does not become the bigger weapons stockpile depot that it already is. The Gazans are free to leave from the Egyptian border any time that they want. Perhaps you can offer your services to the Israeli government in an advisory capacity. I was referring to the wider region but for the record the UN consider Israel still to be the occupying power. If the Israeli Government wants my advice and I would be willing to assist. The same UN that elected Libya, Syria and China among others, as chairs of the Commission on Human Rights. Glorious institution. "Just because it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, doesn't necessarily mean it is a duck." The same UN that was good enough when we needed a mandate to invade Iraq. Exactly. It proves the UN's institutional shortcomings and general futility.
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Jonny_Johnson

Tel Aviv 18 Nov 12 11.42pm

Quote Bert the Head at 18 Nov 2012 11.38pm

Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 11.35pm

Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.53pm

Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 10.34pm

Quote Oliver at 18 Nov 2012 10.25pm

Quote BobRoberts at 18 Nov 2012 9.36pm

Israel heavy handed surely only to anti Semites?

If the UK had 'only 61 deaths' in the last 5 years from Belgium / Dutch etc rockets I would hope we invade, most propel would, but why is it less of a reason when it's Jewish deaths??,

I was referring to the wider region but for the record the UN consider Israel still to be the occupying power.

If the Israeli Government wants my advice and I would be willing to assist.

The same UN that elected Libya, Syria and China among others, as chairs of the Commission on Human Rights. Glorious institution.

"Just because it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, doesn't necessarily mean it is a duck."

The same UN that was good enough when we needed a mandate to invade Iraq.

Exactly. It proves the UN's institutional shortcomings and general futility.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 18 Nov 12 11.49pm
Interesting article [Link] Seems that its not just about the missiles. Fatah, who control the West Bank, are very close to getting observer status with the UN, which would mean that Palestine is recognise as a state. This would allow them to press for charges against Israel for war crimes. The article also claims that the leader of Hamas, who was killed last week, was very close to signing a peace deal with the Israelis, but the Israelites decided they no longer want this. The arab spring has changed the middle east jigsaw too, with some countries too preoccupied with sorting themselves out, whilst others have changed their stance towards Israel. Israel have also stepped down a little towards Iran, but Iran are helping Hammas. Oh and Matt Himself, another little dig at me with your comments I see. If you don't like me, fair enough, but don't resort to infantile posts against me. It makes you look a cock.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 18 Nov 12 11.49pm

Interesting article
[Link]
Seems that its not just about the missiles. Fatah, who control the West Bank, are very close to getting observer status with the UN, which would mean that Palestine is recognise as a state. This would allow them to press for charges against Israel for war crimes.
The article also claims that the leader of Hamas, who was killed last week, was very close to signing a peace deal with the Israelis, but the Israelites decided they no longer want this.
The arab spring has changed the middle east jigsaw too, with some countries too preoccupied with sorting themselves out, whilst others have changed their stance towards Israel.
Israel have also stepped down a little towards Iran, but Iran are helping Hammas.

Oh and Matt Himself, another little dig at me with your comments I see. If you don't like me, fair enough, but don't resort to infantile posts against me. It makes you look a cock.

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suicideatselhurst crawley 19 Nov 12 2.01am
Quote nickgusset at 18 Nov 2012 11.49pm Interesting article [Link] Seems that its not just about the missiles. Fatah, who control the West Bank, are very close to getting observer status with the UN, which would mean that Palestine is recognise as a state. This would allow them to press for charges against Israel for war crimes. The article also claims that the leader of Hamas, who was killed last week, was very close to signing a peace deal with the Israelis, but the Israelites decided they no longer want this. The arab spring has changed the middle east jigsaw too, with some countries too preoccupied with sorting themselves out, whilst others have changed their stance towards Israel. Israel have also stepped down a little towards Iran, but Iran are helping Hammas. Oh and Matt Himself, another little dig at me with your comments I see. If you don't like me, fair enough, but don't resort to infantile posts against me. It makes you look a cock. Bloody hell Nick, thats the first time i ever heard you swear at someone... Theres someone in my head ... But its not me X/Box game Tag bazcpfc1961, clan (HMS)
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suicideatselhurst

crawley 19 Nov 12 2.01am

Quote nickgusset at 18 Nov 2012 11.49pm

Oh and Matt Himself, another little dig at me with your comments I see. If you don't like me, fair enough, but don't resort to infantile posts against me. It makes you look a cock.

Bloody hell Nick, thats the first time i ever heard you swear at someone...

Theres someone in my head ... But its not me

X/Box game Tag bazcpfc1961, clan (HMS)

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matt_himself Matataland 19 Nov 12 5.06am
Quote nickgusset at 18 Nov 2012 11.49pm Interesting article [Link] Seems that its not just about the missiles. Fatah, who control the West Bank, are very close to getting observer status with the UN, which would mean that Palestine is recognise as a state. This would allow them to press for charges against Israel for war crimes. The article also claims that the leader of Hamas, who was killed last week, was very close to signing a peace deal with the Israelis, but the Israelites decided they no longer want this. The arab spring has changed the middle east jigsaw too, with some countries too preoccupied with sorting themselves out, whilst others have changed their stance towards Israel. Israel have also stepped down a little towards Iran, but Iran are helping Hammas. Oh and Matt Himself, another little dig at me with your comments I see. If you don't like me, fair enough, but don't resort to infantile posts against me. It makes you look a cock. Oh dear Nick. The above suggests to me that you cannot defend your crackpot views. Resorting to the 'you look like a cock' defence is one step away from the 'I am not explaining myself to you' fence, the last bastion of the intellectually devoid. As I have suggested previously, if you actually had some life experience outside the environs of learning establishments, you would view hings differently, as they actually are. Suggest you do that. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 19 Nov 12 5.06am

Quote nickgusset at 18 Nov 2012 11.49pm

Oh and Matt Himself, another little dig at me with your comments I see. If you don't like me, fair enough, but don't resort to infantile posts against me. It makes you look a cock.

Oh dear Nick. The above suggests to me that you cannot defend your crackpot views. Resorting to the 'you look like a cock' defence is one step away from the 'I am not explaining myself to you' fence, the last bastion of the intellectually devoid.

As I have suggested previously, if you actually had some life experience outside the environs of learning establishments, you would view hings differently, as they actually are. Suggest you do that.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Doctor Jazz The Soul Cellar 19 Nov 12 8.32am
Being a simple soul, it seems to me that this all stems back to the 4by’s nicking/invading Palestinianers land which to me would appear to be bad form. What I don’t understand is why the West – USA in particular, supports the 4by’s in this. Seems to me that they are the black hats here. Keep calm, have courage and watch for signs.
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Doctor Jazz

The Soul Cellar 19 Nov 12 8.32am

Being a simple soul, it seems to me that this all stems back to the 4by’s nicking/invading Palestinianers land which to me would appear to be bad form. What I don’t understand is why the West – USA in particular, supports the 4by’s in this. Seems to me that they are the black hats here.

Keep calm, have courage and watch for signs.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 19 Nov 12 8.48am
Quote matt_himself at 19 Nov 2012 5.06am Quote nickgusset at 18 Nov 2012 11.49pm Interesting article [Link] Seems that its not just about the missiles. Fatah, who control the West Bank, are very close to getting observer status with the UN, which would mean that Palestine is recognise as a state. This would allow them to press for charges against Israel for war crimes. The article also claims that the leader of Hamas, who was killed last week, was very close to signing a peace deal with the Israelis, but the Israelites decided they no longer want this. The arab spring has changed the middle east jigsaw too, with some countries too preoccupied with sorting themselves out, whilst others have changed their stance towards Israel. Israel have also stepped down a little towards Iran, but Iran are helping Hammas. Oh and Matt Himself, another little dig at me with your comments I see. If you don't like me, fair enough, but don't resort to infantile posts against me. It makes you look a cock. Oh dear Nick. The above suggests to me that you cannot defend your crackpot views. Resorting to the 'you look like a cock' defence is one step away from the 'I am not explaining myself to you' fence, the last bastion of the intellectually devoid. As I have suggested previously, if you actually had some life experience outside the environs of learning establishments, you would view hings differently, as they actually are. Suggest you do that. You're doing it again!
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 19 Nov 12 8.48am

Quote matt_himself at 19 Nov 2012 5.06am

Quote nickgusset at 18 Nov 2012 11.49pm

Oh and Matt Himself, another little dig at me with your comments I see. If you don't like me, fair enough, but don't resort to infantile posts against me. It makes you look a cock.

As I have suggested previously, if you actually had some life experience outside the environs of learning establishments, you would view hings differently, as they actually are. Suggest you do that.

You're doing it again!

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Doctor Jazz The Soul Cellar 19 Nov 12 9.01am
Quote Doctor Jazz at 19 Nov 2012 8.32am Being a simple soul, it seems to me that this all stems back to the 4by’s nicking/invading Palestinianers land which to me would appear to be bad form. What I don’t understand is why the West – USA in particular, supports the 4by’s in this. Seems to me that they are the black hats here. Are my thoughts on the basis of this conflict correct? Keep calm, have courage and watch for signs.
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Doctor Jazz

The Soul Cellar 19 Nov 12 9.01am

Quote Doctor Jazz at 19 Nov 2012 8.32am

Are my thoughts on the basis of this conflict correct?

Keep calm, have courage and watch for signs.

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Jonny_Johnson Tel Aviv 19 Nov 12 9.10am
Quote nickgusset at 18 Nov 2012 11.49pm Interesting article [Link] Seems that its not just about the missiles. Fatah, who control the West Bank, are very close to getting observer status with the UN, which would mean that Palestine is recognise as a state. This would allow them to press for charges against Israel for war crimes. The article also claims that the leader of Hamas, who was killed last week, was very close to signing a peace deal with the Israelis, but the Israelites decided they no longer want this. The arab spring has changed the middle east jigsaw too, with some countries too preoccupied with sorting themselves out, whilst others have changed their stance towards Israel. Israel have also stepped down a little towards Iran, but Iran are helping Hammas. Oh and Matt Himself, another little dig at me with your comments I see. If you don't like me, fair enough, but don't resort to infantile posts against me. It makes you look a cock. That article is so wide of the mark. It's conspiratorial at best. I don't think Israel is concerned in the slightest about allegations of war crimes. The truth tends to exonerate Israel for the most part.
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Jonny_Johnson

Tel Aviv 19 Nov 12 9.10am

Quote nickgusset at 18 Nov 2012 11.49pm

Oh and Matt Himself, another little dig at me with your comments I see. If you don't like me, fair enough, but don't resort to infantile posts against me. It makes you look a cock.

That article is so wide of the mark. It's conspiratorial at best. I don't think Israel is concerned in the slightest about allegations of war crimes. The truth tends to exonerate Israel for the most part.

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