Is Trump going to make president?

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Is Trump going to make president?

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hedgehog50 Croydon 06 Feb 17 2.18pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Bad analogy as the point was about human on human violence not teeny weeny insects nastiness on humans as you well know. 300,000 killed by the gun in the U.S over the last 10 or so years. That's two Hiroshimas. So, well over 1,000,0000 family members directly affected by the loss. Assassination of JKF - 'pretty negligible'? We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 06 Feb 17 2.18pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Bad analogy as the point was about human on human violence not teeny weeny insects nastiness on humans as you well know.

300,000 killed by the gun in the U.S over the last 10 or so years. That's two Hiroshimas.

So, well over 1,000,0000 family members directly affected by the loss.

Assassination of JKF - 'pretty negligible'?

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Hrolf The Ganger 06 Feb 17 4.15pm
Originally posted by europalace Yep and how many from 'Islamic' nations? Negligible or non existent, proving my point exactly. It's clear to me that Trumps ban is more about politics than practicality but I wonder how many Anti Trumpers and general critics of flimsy anti terrorist measures would keep crowing if it were possible to create a situation which virtually guaranteed an end to Islamic terrorism in the West but meant a total ban on Muslim migration. What is more important to you?
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Hrolf The Ganger

06 Feb 17 4.15pm

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Originally posted by europalace

Yep and how many from 'Islamic' nations? Negligible or non existent, proving my point exactly.

It's clear to me that Trumps ban is more about politics than practicality but I wonder how many Anti Trumpers and general critics of flimsy anti terrorist measures would keep crowing if it were possible to create a situation which virtually guaranteed an end to Islamic terrorism in the West but meant a total ban on Muslim migration.

What is more important to you?

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Kermit8 Hevon 06 Feb 17 4.20pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger It's clear to me that Trumps ban is more about politics than practicality but I wonder how many Anti Trumpers and general critics of flimsy anti terrorist measures would keep crowing if it were possible to create a situation which virtually guaranteed an end to Islamic terrorism in the West but meant a total ban on Muslim migration. What is more important to you? Don't think i've heard a more ridiculous loaded question on here. How about a total ban on teenagers and drunk people at the weekend so we are less likely to be stabbed and/or assaulted? Or, back in the 70s and 80's, why didn't we ban all Irish people from the mainland? Less bombs then. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 06 Feb 17 4.20pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

What is more important to you?

Don't think i've heard a more ridiculous loaded question on here.

How about a total ban on teenagers and drunk people at the weekend so we are less likely to be stabbed and/or assaulted?

Or, back in the 70s and 80's, why didn't we ban all Irish people from the mainland? Less bombs then.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Feb 17 4.28pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Assassination of JKF - 'pretty negligible'? A good start I'd say. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Feb 17 4.28pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Assassination of JKF - 'pretty negligible'?

A good start I'd say.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Feb 17 4.38pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger It's clear to me that Trumps ban is more about politics than practicality but I wonder how many Anti Trumpers and general critics of flimsy anti terrorist measures would keep crowing if it were possible to create a situation which virtually guaranteed an end to Islamic terrorism in the West but meant a total ban on Muslim migration. What is more important to you? Islamic terrorism in the west couldn't be solved by a ban, because in most of the cases, the perpetrators of such acts have been nationals of the country. I'm all for anti-terrorist measures that work and are effective, but this kind of thing is just about pandering to the mob and doing nothing. I'm happy with the idea of drone strike assassinations by the UK provided the evidence of guilt is accepted by a independent judge as 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Its the lazy back hand, sloppy 'justify anything' and hide the truth behind national security that's the problem. I'm pretty sure the US use of torture, kidknapping, assassination by drone, covering up collateral damage behind national security, imprisonment without trial, regime changes in Libya and Iraq and the violation of numerous countries national sovereignty under the guise of 'anti-terrorism' have only served to create a greater danger to the West than they faced. The US, has done more for the recruitment and power of groups like Al-Qaeda and IS, than they could ever have achieved themselves, whilst systematically positioning Iran and Saudi Arabia as the key political powerhouses of the middle east, and destabilising the security and stability of any pakistan government. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Feb 17 4.38pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

What is more important to you?

Islamic terrorism in the west couldn't be solved by a ban, because in most of the cases, the perpetrators of such acts have been nationals of the country.

I'm all for anti-terrorist measures that work and are effective, but this kind of thing is just about pandering to the mob and doing nothing.

I'm happy with the idea of drone strike assassinations by the UK provided the evidence of guilt is accepted by a independent judge as 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Its the lazy back hand, sloppy 'justify anything' and hide the truth behind national security that's the problem.

I'm pretty sure the US use of torture, kidknapping, assassination by drone, covering up collateral damage behind national security, imprisonment without trial, regime changes in Libya and Iraq and the violation of numerous countries national sovereignty under the guise of 'anti-terrorism' have only served to create a greater danger to the West than they faced.

The US, has done more for the recruitment and power of groups like Al-Qaeda and IS, than they could ever have achieved themselves, whilst systematically positioning Iran and Saudi Arabia as the key political powerhouses of the middle east, and destabilising the security and stability of any pakistan government.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 06 Feb 17 4.39pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Don't think i've heard a more ridiculous loaded question on here. How about a total ban on teenagers and drunk people at the weekend so we are less likely to be stabbed and/or assaulted? Or, back in the 70s and 80's, why didn't we ban all Irish people from the mainland? Less bombs then. You lot never answer the pertinent questions because you know it would reveal your true priorities. The fact is you are more bothered about ideology and the rights of people you don't know than the lives of fellow countrymen. Just have the balls to admit it.
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Hrolf The Ganger

06 Feb 17 4.39pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Don't think i've heard a more ridiculous loaded question on here.

How about a total ban on teenagers and drunk people at the weekend so we are less likely to be stabbed and/or assaulted?

Or, back in the 70s and 80's, why didn't we ban all Irish people from the mainland? Less bombs then.

You lot never answer the pertinent questions because you know it would reveal your true priorities.

The fact is you are more bothered about ideology and the rights of people you don't know than the lives of fellow countrymen.

Just have the balls to admit it.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Feb 17 4.43pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger It's clear to me that Trumps ban is more about politics than practicality but I wonder how many Anti Trumpers and general critics of flimsy anti terrorist measures would keep crowing if it were possible to create a situation which virtually guaranteed an end to Islamic terrorism in the West but meant a total ban on Muslim migration. What is more important to you? Also the threat of Islamist Terrorism in the west won't be averted, without resolving the problems of the Middle East that have created Islamist terrorism, both Sunni and Shia, since the 60s. Its easy to forget that in many of the Middle Eastern countries, political change without political violence is almost unheard of. There won't be an end to the political violence of the middle east, whilst the states of the middle east hold their authority through violent suppression. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Feb 17 4.43pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

What is more important to you?

Also the threat of Islamist Terrorism in the west won't be averted, without resolving the problems of the Middle East that have created Islamist terrorism, both Sunni and Shia, since the 60s. Its easy to forget that in many of the Middle Eastern countries, political change without political violence is almost unheard of. There won't be an end to the political violence of the middle east, whilst the states of the middle east hold their authority through violent suppression.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 06 Feb 17 4.47pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Islamic terrorism in the west couldn't be solved by a ban, because in most of the cases, the perpetrators of such acts have been nationals of the country. I'm all for anti-terrorist measures that work and are effective, but this kind of thing is just about pandering to the mob and doing nothing. I'm happy with the idea of drone strike assassinations by the UK provided the evidence of guilt is accepted by a independent judge as 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Its the lazy back hand, sloppy 'justify anything' and hide the truth behind national security that's the problem. I'm pretty sure the US use of torture, kidknapping, assassination by drone, covering up collateral damage behind national security, imprisonment without trial, regime changes in Libya and Iraq and the violation of numerous countries national sovereignty under the guise of 'anti-terrorism' have only served to create a greater danger to the West than they faced. The US, has done more for the recruitment and power of groups like Al-Qaeda and IS, than they could ever have achieved themselves, whilst systematically positioning Iran and Saudi Arabia as the key political powerhouses of the middle east, and destabilising the security and stability of any pakistan government. This is the most important factor. It has to work and not just be a tokenism. Reason has to prevail over populism on both sides however. It is as you say, also seemingly apparent that US ambitions run counter to world stability and the security of citizens. We do not necessarily have the bigger picture of course. My post was more about attitudes and their motivations.
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Hrolf The Ganger

06 Feb 17 4.47pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Islamic terrorism in the west couldn't be solved by a ban, because in most of the cases, the perpetrators of such acts have been nationals of the country.

I'm all for anti-terrorist measures that work and are effective, but this kind of thing is just about pandering to the mob and doing nothing.

I'm happy with the idea of drone strike assassinations by the UK provided the evidence of guilt is accepted by a independent judge as 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Its the lazy back hand, sloppy 'justify anything' and hide the truth behind national security that's the problem.

This is the most important factor. It has to work and not just be a tokenism. Reason has to prevail over populism on both sides however.
It is as you say, also seemingly apparent that US ambitions run counter to world stability and the security of citizens. We do not necessarily have the bigger picture of course.

My post was more about attitudes and their motivations.

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Kermit8 Hevon 06 Feb 17 4.49pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You lot never answer the pertinent questions because you know it would reveal your true priorities. The fact is you are more bothered about ideology and the rights of people you don't know than the lives of fellow countrymen. Just have the balls to admit it. You've lost the plot, man. Any sane person would want terrorists kept as far away from our shores as possible but to ban another one billion people to achieve it is beyond ridiculous. It's a stupid question not a pertinent one. Edited by Kermit8 (06 Feb 2017 4.49pm) Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 06 Feb 17 4.49pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You lot never answer the pertinent questions because you know it would reveal your true priorities.

The fact is you are more bothered about ideology and the rights of people you don't know than the lives of fellow countrymen.

Just have the balls to admit it.

You've lost the plot, man. Any sane person would want terrorists kept as far away from our shores as possible but to ban another one billion people to achieve it is beyond ridiculous. It's a stupid question not a pertinent one.

Edited by Kermit8 (06 Feb 2017 4.49pm)

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 06 Feb 17 4.52pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Also the threat of Islamist Terrorism in the west won't be averted, without resolving the problems of the Middle East that have created Islamist terrorism, both Sunni and Shia, since the 60s. Its easy to forget that in many of the Middle Eastern countries, political change without political violence is almost unheard of. There won't be an end to the political violence of the middle east, whilst the states of the middle east hold their authority through violent suppression. So what do we do?
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Hrolf The Ganger

06 Feb 17 4.52pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Also the threat of Islamist Terrorism in the west won't be averted, without resolving the problems of the Middle East that have created Islamist terrorism, both Sunni and Shia, since the 60s. Its easy to forget that in many of the Middle Eastern countries, political change without political violence is almost unheard of. There won't be an end to the political violence of the middle east, whilst the states of the middle east hold their authority through violent suppression.

So what do we do?

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Hrolf The Ganger 06 Feb 17 4.54pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 You've lost the plot, man. Any sane person would want terrorists kept as far away from our shores as possible but to ban another one billion people to achieve it is beyond ridiculous. It's a stupid question not a pertinent one. Edited by Kermit8 (06 Feb 2017 4.49pm) It was a hypothetical question. It required a straight answer. The fact that you haven't provided one rather answers my question just the same. Thanks for taking part.
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Hrolf The Ganger

06 Feb 17 4.54pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Edited by Kermit8 (06 Feb 2017 4.49pm)

It was a hypothetical question. It required a straight answer.
The fact that you haven't provided one rather answers my question just the same.

Thanks for taking part.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Feb 17 4.56pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger This is the most important factor. It has to work and not just be a tokenism. Reason has to prevail over populism on both sides however. It is as you say, also seemingly apparent that US ambitions run counter to world stability and the security of citizens. We do not necessarily have the bigger picture of course. My post was more about attitudes and their motivations. The price of security, should never be freedom. We've become a bigger threat to our own defining civil liberties, than any terrorist group ever could be. Now every dead IS member is acceptable to me, but we have a greater responsibility to ensure that those we kill, maim and disappear are actually the right people - We have a greater responsibility than IS, because we are not 'the evil' in the equation, they are. We are a civilised nation of law that prizes freedom and values well above those of these murderous hordes. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Feb 17 4.56pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

My post was more about attitudes and their motivations.

The price of security, should never be freedom. We've become a bigger threat to our own defining civil liberties, than any terrorist group ever could be.

Now every dead IS member is acceptable to me, but we have a greater responsibility to ensure that those we kill, maim and disappear are actually the right people - We have a greater responsibility than IS, because we are not 'the evil' in the equation, they are. We are a civilised nation of law that prizes freedom and values well above those of these murderous hordes.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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