We haven’t heard Corbyn’s undeliverable promises yet to damage the Tories in the polls. Actually we have, at their conference, but they were so ridiculous everyone has forgotten. Reducing the working week on equal pay was a cracker. Might work in offices, but not in, erm, working class manual jobs.

Funny how we get called idiots for voting leave when real idiots vote these fools.

You really are the most patronising person I think I have read.
You're sense of self importance knows no bounds.

You bang on about other people being blind to other views..and yet you are by far the worst culprit of this.

I actually saw Herr Verhofstadt talking about a reason for an EU army just the other day......maybe you should search out the speech on youtube.....or is that beneath you?? Oh just seen youve left HOL so wont see this. are you never coming back??

Edited by the silurian (04 Nov 2019 1.54pm)

Someone saying they want something is not the same as saying it is an inevitability based on a treaty though, is it?

I would think that was a given from the outset. If you're dealing with forces like USA and China/Asia, seems reasonable to be in a large group too.
I personally think the bigger issue will be if an EU army is created and, IF, we're still 'in' and don't veto it's creation/membership; what does that mean for NATO? (For the penny pinchers out there, that's £55bn a year. Who does this army answer to? Could we have a situation where our own army is used against us?

All valid observations and indeed were discussed back in the early seventies.

I think the early Tories like Thatcher, who were pro Europe, thought that they could win the battle of ideas and shape the union away from pooling sovereignty beyond trade and other aspects like increased cooperation on security, universities and so on....stuff no one gets too bothered about.

She came to realise however that she was mistaken but unfortunately only after signing a couple of 'ever closer union' treaties. I do see a genuine threat to NATO down the pipe, which are excellent points you make plus a moving away from the US...I can't support either of those directions as particularly wise.

Also, while I support Brexit as a very necessary device for the legitimacy of the democratic process....looking at the deal, which is admittedly better than May's it still is pretty poor.

We are in so deep with the EU that even Boris's deal still makes us far too fiscally affected if the EU collapses....which does kind of make you scratch your head as too the point......Because personally I don't see the EU as ultimately fiscally solvent.

But Brexit is a principle, that said who knows where we will be ten years down the line.

Probably on our third vote.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2019 6.16pm)