Confederate Statues

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Confederate Statues

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Ray in Houston Houston 23 Aug 17 4.57pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I think what you are saying here is true for some people but it isn't true for others. Was Elvis a racist for singing American trilogy. How about his backing singers they sung on it too.....Who gets to tell others what their motivation is.....I think it should require careful observation rather than blanket statements. Sure some wave that flag and lie about the reasons and some don't. Elvis recorded that in 1972. The BBC last aired an episode of the Black and White Minstrel Show in 1978. Just because more people were ignorant (dictionary definition - not pejorative) of such racism at the time doesn't make it ok now. However, if you want to look back in time for relevant examples of southern pride, there once was a time when the southern states in America broke from the Union because the Union had moved to make illegal slavery. At the time, I'm sure they were very proud to be marching and fighting under their own, new flag to maintain their heritage of owning people. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 23 Aug 17 4.57pm

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Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I think what you are saying here is true for some people but it isn't true for others.

Was Elvis a racist for singing American trilogy. How about his backing singers they sung on it too.....Who gets to tell others what their motivation is.....I think it should require careful observation rather than blanket statements.

Sure some wave that flag and lie about the reasons and some don't.

Elvis recorded that in 1972. The BBC last aired an episode of the Black and White Minstrel Show in 1978. Just because more people were ignorant (dictionary definition - not pejorative) of such racism at the time doesn't make it ok now.

However, if you want to look back in time for relevant examples of southern pride, there once was a time when the southern states in America broke from the Union because the Union had moved to make illegal slavery. At the time, I'm sure they were very proud to be marching and fighting under their own, new flag to maintain their heritage of owning people.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Aug 17 4.58pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Do the majority actually want it moved? Did anyone ask everybody? I have to say that what disturbs me most is that people actually care about a statue at all. One more time. Where will it all end? Will we destroy, hide, move anything that offends someone? Well arguably they had an election, and the representatives all had a vote, and it was 2-3 to move it. Hilariously, I find it astonishing also that people give such fks about a statue. I don't really get this revering people who basically did their job (in this case badly) as the 'heroes' rather than the people who actually did the fighting. Its like the statue of Bomber Harris, did he fly a Lancaster bomber over Germany, risking flack, enemy fighters and god knows what else, no. He gave orders - fk that guy - he had it easy. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 23 Aug 17 4.58pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Do the majority actually want it moved? Did anyone ask everybody?
I have to say that what disturbs me most is that people actually care about a statue at all.

One more time. Where will it all end? Will we destroy, hide, move anything that offends someone?

Well arguably they had an election, and the representatives all had a vote, and it was 2-3 to move it.

Hilariously, I find it astonishing also that people give such f**ks about a statue. I don't really get this revering people who basically did their job (in this case badly) as the 'heroes' rather than the people who actually did the fighting.

Its like the statue of Bomber Harris, did he fly a Lancaster bomber over Germany, risking flack, enemy fighters and god knows what else, no. He gave orders - f**k that guy - he had it easy.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Aug 17 4.59pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You are a big supporter of democracy suddenly. Funny, because you weren't so keen when Trump got elected. You mean the bloke who won an election, with less votes than the other person? "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 23 Aug 17 4.59pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You are a big supporter of democracy suddenly.

Funny, because you weren't so keen when Trump got elected.

You mean the bloke who won an election, with less votes than the other person?

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Mapletree Croydon 23 Aug 17 5.01pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Well arguably they had an election, and the representatives all had a vote, and it was 2-3 to move it. Hilariously, I find it astonishing also that people give such fks about a statue. I don't really get this revering people who basically did their job (in this case badly) as the 'heroes' rather than the people who actually did the fighting. Its like the statue of Bomber Harris, did he fly a Lancaster bomber over Germany, risking flack, enemy fighters and god knows what else, no. He gave orders - fk that guy - he had it easy. There is a statue to Bomber Harris? Now that is one I wouldn't mind seeing come down. His tactics were not only ineffectual, they also bordered on war crimes. So many children died of asphyxiation. [Link] Edited by Mapletree (23 Aug 2017 5.03pm)
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Mapletree

Croydon 23 Aug 17 5.01pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Well arguably they had an election, and the representatives all had a vote, and it was 2-3 to move it.

Its like the statue of Bomber Harris, did he fly a Lancaster bomber over Germany, risking flack, enemy fighters and god knows what else, no. He gave orders - f**k that guy - he had it easy.

There is a statue to Bomber Harris? Now that is one I wouldn't mind seeing come down. His tactics were not only ineffectual, they also bordered on war crimes. So many children died of asphyxiation.

[Link]

Edited by Mapletree (23 Aug 2017 5.03pm)

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Ray in Houston Houston 23 Aug 17 5.02pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Do the majority actually want it moved? Did anyone ask everybody? I have to say that what disturbs me most is that people actually care about a statue at all. One more time. Where will it all end? Will we destroy, hide, move anything that offends someone? Polls suggest that the majority nationwide want the statues not to be taken down. That's fine, as long as they're ok with the people who don't want them in their town moving them to the places where these pro-statue people live. As to "destroying, hiding or moving" anything that offends someone, you make it sound like they're town busybodies complaining about Mrs Jones' garden gnomes. What if Brighton fans had erected a statue of Alan Mullery in the place where he threw money on the floor and told Palace fans "that's what you club's worth". Would we all be wussies if we wanted that taken down or at least moved somewhere else? We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 23 Aug 17 5.02pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Do the majority actually want it moved? Did anyone ask everybody? I have to say that what disturbs me most is that people actually care about a statue at all.

One more time. Where will it all end? Will we destroy, hide, move anything that offends someone?

Polls suggest that the majority nationwide want the statues not to be taken down. That's fine, as long as they're ok with the people who don't want them in their town moving them to the places where these pro-statue people live.

As to "destroying, hiding or moving" anything that offends someone, you make it sound like they're town busybodies complaining about Mrs Jones' garden gnomes. What if Brighton fans had erected a statue of Alan Mullery in the place where he threw money on the floor and told Palace fans "that's what you club's worth". Would we all be wussies if we wanted that taken down or at least moved somewhere else?

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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Ray in Houston Houston 23 Aug 17 5.07pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Hilariously, I find it astonishing also that people give such fks about a statue. I don't really get this revering people who basically did their job (in this case badly) as the 'heroes' rather than the people who actually did the fighting. Ironically, it was a statue of a Confederate soldier that got toppled and for which people have been charged. But the fact that such monuments have become lightning rods to the white supremacist movement in the U.S. is a good enough reason to move them to places where they can be displayed in the appropriate context. Leaving them in places of honour fuels the racist's fire. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just waing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 23 Aug 17 5.07pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Ironically, it was a statue of a Confederate soldier that got toppled and for which people have been charged.

But the fact that such monuments have become lightning rods to the white supremacist movement in the U.S. is a good enough reason to move them to places where they can be displayed in the appropriate context. Leaving them in places of honour fuels the racist's fire.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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Hrolf The Ganger 23 Aug 17 5.07pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston Polls suggest that the majority nationwide want the statues not to be taken down. That's fine, as long as they're ok with the people who don't want them in their town moving them to the places where these pro-statue people live. As to "destroying, hiding or moving" anything that offends someone, you make it sound like they're town busybodies complaining about Mrs Jones' garden gnomes. What if Brighton fans had erected a statue of Alan Mullery in the place where he threw money on the floor and told Palace fans "that's what you club's worth". Would we all be wussies if we wanted that taken down or at least moved somewhere else? No, it's a disease that infects people minds where they believe they are doing the right thing when in fact they are just indoctrinated by a pervasive and deliberate agenda.
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Hrolf The Ganger

23 Aug 17 5.07pm

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Originally posted by Ray in Houston

As to "destroying, hiding or moving" anything that offends someone, you make it sound like they're town busybodies complaining about Mrs Jones' garden gnomes. What if Brighton fans had erected a statue of Alan Mullery in the place where he threw money on the floor and told Palace fans "that's what you club's worth". Would we all be wussies if we wanted that taken down or at least moved somewhere else?

No, it's a disease that infects people minds where they believe they are doing the right thing when in fact they are just indoctrinated by a pervasive and deliberate agenda.

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Hrolf The Ganger 23 Aug 17 5.12pm
Originally posted by Mapletree There is a statue to Bomber Harris? Now that is one I wouldn't mind seeing come down. His tactics were not only ineffectual, they also bordered on war crimes. So many children died of asphyxiation. [Link] Edited by Mapletree (23 Aug 2017 5.03pm) Yes, I'm sure the people of Britain were full of sympathy when the Germans were bombing their towns and killing their sons, brothers and husbands in combat. It was war. What is wrong with you?
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Hrolf The Ganger

23 Aug 17 5.12pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

There is a statue to Bomber Harris? Now that is one I wouldn't mind seeing come down. His tactics were not only ineffectual, they also bordered on war crimes. So many children died of asphyxiation.

[Link]

Edited by Mapletree (23 Aug 2017 5.03pm)

Yes, I'm sure the people of Britain were full of sympathy when the Germans were bombing their towns and killing their sons, brothers and husbands in combat.

It was war. What is wrong with you?

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Hrolf The Ganger 23 Aug 17 5.16pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Well arguably they had an election, and the representatives all had a vote, and it was 2-3 to move it. Hilariously, I find it astonishing also that people give such fks about a statue. I don't really get this revering people who basically did their job (in this case badly) as the 'heroes' rather than the people who actually did the fighting. Its like the statue of Bomber Harris, did he fly a Lancaster bomber over Germany, risking flack, enemy fighters and god knows what else, no. He gave orders - fk that guy - he had it easy. So there was no referendum on it. It was decided by a small group of self intersted people. I would agree that people who actually did something brave or sacrificial should be honoured rather than the bloke who stayed at home.
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Hrolf The Ganger

23 Aug 17 5.16pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Well arguably they had an election, and the representatives all had a vote, and it was 2-3 to move it.

Its like the statue of Bomber Harris, did he fly a Lancaster bomber over Germany, risking flack, enemy fighters and god knows what else, no. He gave orders - f**k that guy - he had it easy.

So there was no referendum on it. It was decided by a small group of self intersted people.

I would agree that people who actually did something brave or sacrificial should be honoured rather than the bloke who stayed at home.

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Ray in Houston Houston 23 Aug 17 5.17pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays This word, 'colour' being used to describe non white people is a bit weird. White people are coloured too. I'm not getting at Ray for using it but making a wider point because it's something I'm noticing more and more. Technically black or white aren't actually colours but in reality it's extremely unlikely that a white or black person has ever been born that would fit the description. So we are all coloured. Non caucasian is probably better. The preferred collective noun for non-whites is an ever-changing thing. My parents named me "Raymond" but I prefer "Ray" so that's what people call me (except the wife, when I've done something wrong). "People/persons of colour" is currently en vogue in the U.S. as it embraces all those who are not white. As the racial mix of the U.S. continues to shift towards people of colour - for example Texas is a majority non-white state as is its largest city, Houston - then I'm sure things will shift such that the racial minority will be referred to as "people of no colour". Which category Trump fits into, I haven't the foggiest. Edited by Ray in Houston (23 Aug 2017 5.17pm) We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 23 Aug 17 5.17pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

This word, 'colour' being used to describe non white people is a bit weird. White people are coloured too. I'm not getting at Ray for using it but making a wider point because it's something I'm noticing more and more.

Technically black or white aren't actually colours but in reality it's extremely unlikely that a white or black person has ever been born that would fit the description.

So we are all coloured. Non caucasian is probably better.

The preferred collective noun for non-whites is an ever-changing thing. My parents named me "Raymond" but I prefer "Ray" so that's what people call me (except the wife, when I've done something wrong).

"People/persons of colour" is currently en vogue in the U.S. as it embraces all those who are not white. As the racial mix of the U.S. continues to shift towards people of colour - for example Texas is a majority non-white state as is its largest city, Houston - then I'm sure things will shift such that the racial minority will be referred to as "people of no colour".

Which category Trump fits into, I haven't the foggiest.

Edited by Ray in Houston (23 Aug 2017 5.17pm)

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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Hrolf The Ganger 23 Aug 17 5.18pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 You mean the bloke who won an election, with less votes than the other person? Bet you wouldn't be complaining if Hillary had won.
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Hrolf The Ganger

23 Aug 17 5.18pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

You mean the bloke who won an election, with less votes than the other person?

Bet you wouldn't be complaining if Hillary had won.

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Ray in Houston Houston 23 Aug 17 5.20pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 You mean the bloke who won an election, with less votes than the other person? It's all the rage these days: Trump in 2016, Bush in 2000... In fact, the Democrats have won the popular vote in Presidential elections 4 out of the last 5 and have not seated the President 3 of those 5 (Bush won the popular vote in 2004). When the electoral college reversing the popular vote was a quirk, that's fine, but when it starts to be a consistent trend, then it's time to rethink the process. Edited by Ray in Houston (23 Aug 2017 5.27pm) We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 23 Aug 17 5.20pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

You mean the bloke who won an election, with less votes than the other person?

It's all the rage these days: Trump in 2016, Bush in 2000...

In fact, the Democrats have won the popular vote in Presidential elections 4 out of the last 5 and have not seated the President 3 of those 5 (Bush won the popular vote in 2004). When the electoral college reversing the popular vote was a quirk, that's fine, but when it starts to be a consistent trend, then it's time to rethink the process.

Edited by Ray in Houston (23 Aug 2017 5.27pm)

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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