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matt_himself Matataland 27 Feb 16 10.16am
Originally posted by legaleagle "I doubt that many, if any other situation, Oy would use the Economist to try and win a debate". You indeed appear jet lagged. Personally,I buy the Economist every week,for its non- UK coverage... Perhaps being willing to consider arguments not just coming from one's own particular political persuasion might be thought a positive rather than a negative Matthew? Try it some time Edited by legaleagle (27 Feb 2016 10.09am) A spelling put down. The refuge of the intellectually bankrupt. I am sure you vociferously read right wing and business materials, as you say. Shame it hasn't taught you the practical realities of realpolitik (that's spelt correctly BTW) or how the World really operates. Reading stuff from other perspectives is one thing, understanding it quite another. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 27 Feb 16 10.16am

Originally posted by legaleagle

"I doubt that many, if any other situation, Oy would use the Economist to try and win a debate".

You indeed appear jet lagged.

Personally,I buy the Economist every week,for its non- UK coverage...

Perhaps being willing to consider arguments not just coming from one's own particular political persuasion might be thought a positive rather than a negative Matthew? Try it some time

Edited by legaleagle (27 Feb 2016 10.09am)

A spelling put down. The refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.

I am sure you vociferously read right wing and business materials, as you say.

Shame it hasn't taught you the practical realities of realpolitik (that's spelt correctly BTW) or how the World really operates.

Reading stuff from other perspectives is one thing, understanding it quite another.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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matt_himself Matataland 27 Feb 16 10.20am
Originally posted by nickgusset Why do people have a false view that left wingers don't support business? Sure they are against tax avoiding/evading conglomerates or service providers like British gas et al that take the pish, but that's different to supporting people who set up a small business or run a plumbing business for instance. Where has that been said Gusset? Do you know what a conglomerate is? I think you mean 'multi national company'. The two are different but a company can be both, despite the decline in conglomerates in Western economies since the early nineties. Where he left get criticism from me is if their lack of understanding of business (random example: someone not knowing the difference between the trade and budget deficit's) and the left's keenness to use the business lobby's arguments for staying in the EU when they criticise big business at every available opportunity. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 27 Feb 16 10.20am

Originally posted by nickgusset

Why do people have a false view that left wingers don't support business?
Sure they are against tax avoiding/evading conglomerates or service providers like British gas et al that take the pish, but that's different to supporting people who set up a small business or run a plumbing business for instance.

Where has that been said Gusset?

Do you know what a conglomerate is? I think you mean 'multi national company'. The two are different but a company can be both, despite the decline in conglomerates in Western economies since the early nineties.

Where he left get criticism from me is if their lack of understanding of business (random example: someone not knowing the difference between the trade and budget deficit's) and the left's keenness to use the business lobby's arguments for staying in the EU when they criticise big business at every available opportunity.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Hoof Hearted 27 Feb 16 10.35am
Originally posted by exitstageright Of course we should leave the EV. They all plot together to vote for each other and they hate us - they have never forgiven Sandie Shaw in 1967 for her prophetic winner 'Puppet on a String' that foresaw Britain's future relationship to Europe. Also, these claims that an annual song contest generates 3,000,000 jobs and 200,000 businesses does seem slightly exaggerated? Edited by exitstageright (27 Feb 2016 9.46am) Genius! Hahaha
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Hoof Hearted 27 Feb 16 10.35am

Originally posted by exitstageright

Of course we should leave the EV. They all plot together to vote for each other and they hate us - they have never forgiven Sandie Shaw in 1967 for her prophetic winner 'Puppet on a String' that foresaw Britain's future relationship to Europe. Also, these claims that an annual song contest generates 3,000,000 jobs and 200,000 businesses does seem slightly exaggerated?

Edited by exitstageright (27 Feb 2016 9.46am)

Genius!

Hahaha

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legaleagle 27 Feb 16 10.45am
Originally posted by matt_himself A spelling put down. The refuge of the intellectually bankrupt. I am sure you vociferously read right wing and business materials, as you say. Shame it hasn't taught you the practical realities of realpolitik (that's spelt correctly BTW) or how the World really operates. Reading stuff from other perspectives is one thing, understanding it quite another. Get yourself a sense of humour man Though if,as it appears, you are having trouble understanding stuff you read from another perspective,you have my sympathy... Edited by legaleagle (27 Feb 2016 10.49am)
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legaleagle

27 Feb 16 10.45am

Originally posted by matt_himself

A spelling put down. The refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.

I am sure you vociferously read right wing and business materials, as you say.

Shame it hasn't taught you the practical realities of realpolitik (that's spelt correctly BTW) or how the World really operates.

Reading stuff from other perspectives is one thing, understanding it quite another.

Get yourself a sense of humour man

Though if,as it appears, you are having trouble understanding stuff you read from another perspective,you have my sympathy...

Edited by legaleagle (27 Feb 2016 10.49am)

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Hoof Hearted 27 Feb 16 10.46am
Originally posted by nickgusset Why do people have a false view that left wingers don't support business? Sure they are against tax avoiding/evading conglomerates or service providers like British gas et al that take the pish, but that's different to supporting people who set up a small business or run a plumbing business for instance. It's not a false view though Gusset! Most left wingers are bred in the union dominated public sector, Teachers, Local Government Officers, NHS, Fire Brigade..... Very few have the experience of having to generate a profit to keep their employment and live cushty lives in a closeted environment of good working conditions and benefits from the day they start work to the day they die. As such they are not in tune with those of us that have had to think every day about costs, networking and the like... if you stand still for a moment some one will nick your share of the market. Lets face it your apparent understanding of how much your pension scheme costs the tax payer as demonstrated on here shows your grasp of finance.
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Hoof Hearted 27 Feb 16 10.46am

Originally posted by nickgusset

It's not a false view though Gusset!

Most left wingers are bred in the union dominated public sector, Teachers, Local Government Officers, NHS, Fire Brigade.....

Very few have the experience of having to generate a profit to keep their employment and live cushty lives in a closeted environment of good working conditions and benefits from the day they start work to the day they die.

As such they are not in tune with those of us that have had to think every day about costs, networking and the like... if you stand still for a moment some one will nick your share of the market.

Lets face it your apparent understanding of how much your pension scheme costs the tax payer as demonstrated on here shows your grasp of finance.

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exitstageright London 27 Feb 16 3.22pm
Originally posted by Hoof Hearted Genius! Hahaha The following verse from that profound anthem 'Puppet on a String' sums up the debate nicely I think: "I may win on the roundabout Then I'll lose on the swings In or out, there is never a doubt Just who's pulling the strings I'm all tied up in you But where's it leading me to?" Edited by exitstageright (27 Feb 2016 3.23pm)
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exitstageright

London 27 Feb 16 3.22pm

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

Genius!

Hahaha

The following verse from that profound anthem 'Puppet on a String' sums up the debate nicely I think:

"I may win on the roundabout
Then I'll lose on the swings
In or out, there is never a doubt
Just who's pulling the strings
I'm all tied up in you
But where's it leading me to?"

Edited by exitstageright (27 Feb 2016 3.23pm)

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m/k mick milton keynes 27 Feb 16 4.11pm
I am for leave for many reasons, but if one thing should frighten the life out of us is Turkey, with their borders, god help us, I know someone will shout racist, it not its realism
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m/k mick

milton keynes 27 Feb 16 4.11pm

I am for leave for many reasons, but if one thing should frighten the life out of us is Turkey, with their borders, god help us, I know someone will shout racist, it not its realism

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jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Feb 16 9.23am
Originally posted by nickgusset Why do people have a false view that left wingers don't support business? Sure they are against tax avoiding/evading conglomerates or service providers like British gas et al that take the pish, but that's different to supporting people who set up a small business or run a plumbing business for instance. I'm all for businesses, but my problem with business occurs when the interests of business become a priority over society and the welfare of all citizens. Its the capacity of large business interests to influence government policy. Its also my problem with the EU; that it represents business interests over social interests of society. We talk a lot about 'being the 5th biggest economy' but that means nothing, when countries with far smaller economies (such as Norway) can provide a better standard of living for the population across the board. High house prices, high rent, expensive utilities, low wages are a major problem for the UK in terms of capitalist functionality. I think the problem is that people assume that socialism and socialist ideologies haven't changed since the 30s or 40s. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 29 Feb 16 9.23am

Originally posted by nickgusset

I'm all for businesses, but my problem with business occurs when the interests of business become a priority over society and the welfare of all citizens. Its the capacity of large business interests to influence government policy. Its also my problem with the EU; that it represents business interests over social interests of society.

We talk a lot about 'being the 5th biggest economy' but that means nothing, when countries with far smaller economies (such as Norway) can provide a better standard of living for the population across the board.

High house prices, high rent, expensive utilities, low wages are a major problem for the UK in terms of capitalist functionality.

I think the problem is that people assume that socialism and socialist ideologies haven't changed since the 30s or 40s.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hoof Hearted 29 Feb 16 10.04am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think the problem is that people assume that socialism and socialist ideologies haven't changed since the 30s or 40s. They haven't ! People like Len McCluskey, Arthur Scargill, Bob Crow etc would have us back in the 30s/40s. We'd still be mining coal to generate steam locomotives ensuring the jobs of the "wheeltappers" were preserved for generations to come and nobody would be able to interfere with "their working practices". The fitter's mate would be able to down tools if he wasn't given his 15 minute tea break at 10.30 and call out all his brother's in the TGWU to strike for right tut brew. Luddites.
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Hoof Hearted 29 Feb 16 10.04am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I think the problem is that people assume that socialism and socialist ideologies haven't changed since the 30s or 40s.

They haven't !

People like Len McCluskey, Arthur Scargill, Bob Crow etc would have us back in the 30s/40s.

We'd still be mining coal to generate steam locomotives ensuring the jobs of the "wheeltappers" were preserved for generations to come and nobody would be able to interfere with "their working practices".

The fitter's mate would be able to down tools if he wasn't given his 15 minute tea break at 10.30 and call out all his brother's in the TGWU to strike for right tut brew.

Luddites.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 29 Feb 16 10.05am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I'm all for businesses, but my problem with business occurs when the interests of business become a priority over society and the welfare of all citizens. Its the capacity of large business interests to influence government policy. Its also my problem with the EU; that it represents business interests over social interests of society. We talk a lot about 'being the 5th biggest economy' but that means nothing, when countries with far smaller economies (such as Norway) can provide a better standard of living for the population across the board. High house prices, high rent, expensive utilities, low wages are a major problem for the UK in terms of capitalist functionality. I think the problem is that people assume that socialism and socialist ideologies haven't changed since the 30s or 40s. Was chatting with a baggies friend on the train home on saturday about how companies use to provide stuff for their workforce above and beyond wages, e.g social and sports clubs, cinemas, housing etc etc. Provided a good sense of cohesion within the company. He said that around Birmingham, Cadbury's and a lot of the brewerys used to do it. Really looked after the workforce. Philanthropy seems to be a lot less prevailant now than it used to be.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 29 Feb 16 10.05am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

High house prices, high rent, expensive utilities, low wages are a major problem for the UK in terms of capitalist functionality.

I think the problem is that people assume that socialism and socialist ideologies haven't changed since the 30s or 40s.

Was chatting with a baggies friend on the train home on saturday about how companies use to provide stuff for their workforce above and beyond wages, e.g social and sports clubs, cinemas, housing etc etc. Provided a good sense of cohesion within the company. He said that around Birmingham, Cadbury's and a lot of the brewerys used to do it. Really looked after the workforce.
Philanthropy seems to be a lot less prevailant now than it used to be.

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matt_himself Matataland 29 Feb 16 10.28am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I'm all for businesses, but my problem with business occurs when the interests of business become a priority over society and the welfare of all citizens. Its the capacity of large business interests to influence government policy. Its also my problem with the EU; that it represents business interests over social interests of society. We talk a lot about 'being the 5th biggest economy' but that means nothing, when countries with far smaller economies (such as Norway) can provide a better standard of living for the population across the board. High house prices, high rent, expensive utilities, low wages are a major problem for the UK in terms of capitalist functionality. I think the problem is that people assume that socialism and socialist ideologies haven't changed since the 30s or 40s. Another leftie incorrectly uses Norway as an example of how we should live. Unfortunately Jamie, Norway has less than a 10th of our population, is funded by oil and is able to throw a few token charms at its people, such as long paternity leave, in exchange for very high taxation and living costs. Norway is not the utopia you think it is, nor is it socialist. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 29 Feb 16 10.28am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

High house prices, high rent, expensive utilities, low wages are a major problem for the UK in terms of capitalist functionality.

I think the problem is that people assume that socialism and socialist ideologies haven't changed since the 30s or 40s.

Another leftie incorrectly uses Norway as an example of how we should live.

Unfortunately Jamie, Norway has less than a 10th of our population, is funded by oil and is able to throw a few token charms at its people, such as long paternity leave, in exchange for very high taxation and living costs.

Norway is not the utopia you think it is, nor is it socialist.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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matt_himself Matataland 29 Feb 16 10.30am
Originally posted by nickgusset Was chatting with a baggies friend on the train home on saturday about how companies use to provide stuff for their workforce above and beyond wages, e.g social and sports clubs, cinemas, housing etc etc. Provided a good sense of cohesion within the company. He said that around Birmingham, Cadbury's and a lot of the brewerys used to do it. Really looked after the workforce. Philanthropy seems to be a lot less prevailant now than it used to be. Do you think Chinese companies are benevolent to their employees? What do you think competitors of British companies do for their staff? "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 29 Feb 16 10.30am

Originally posted by nickgusset

Do you think Chinese companies are benevolent to their employees?

What do you think competitors of British companies do for their staff?

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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