Miami shootings

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Miami shootings

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Jun 16 3.28pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 But in doing so, its essential that we do not end up pushing people into the arms of radicals by alienating them. Its also very important I would argue, as well, to cut off the accessibility of potential suspects and people with mental illness to such weapons. Its absurd in the US that you can be on a no fly list, and buy firearms (a bill to prevent which was shot down by the Republican party). Problem is radical Islam isn't going anywhere. Its in Iran, Kuwait, Saudi and UAE. In Palestine, Hamas, are a popular faction. Even our 'allies' in the war against IS consist of Shia militias that are radical Islamist movements (which also comprise a part of the 'Rebel Forces'). IS and Al-Qaeda affiliates are just another face of a much greater issue. Islamist movements in these countries remain the only real source of a 'social justice' within corrupt and murderous regimes that themselves implement extreme Muslim tennets. Clearly there is a separate issue with the availability of guns to all and yet another with the monitoring and control of terrorist suspects. With regard to radical Islam. I believe that we appease these groups at our peril. We must resist their spread by all means necessary.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Jun 16 3.28pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

But in doing so, its essential that we do not end up pushing people into the arms of radicals by alienating them. Its also very important I would argue, as well, to cut off the accessibility of potential suspects and people with mental illness to such weapons.

Its absurd in the US that you can be on a no fly list, and buy firearms (a bill to prevent which was shot down by the Republican party).

Problem is radical Islam isn't going anywhere. Its in Iran, Kuwait, Saudi and UAE. In Palestine, Hamas, are a popular faction. Even our 'allies' in the war against IS consist of Shia militias that are radical Islamist movements (which also comprise a part of the 'Rebel Forces').

IS and Al-Qaeda affiliates are just another face of a much greater issue. Islamist movements in these countries remain the only real source of a 'social justice' within corrupt and murderous regimes that themselves implement extreme Muslim tennets.

Clearly there is a separate issue with the availability of guns to all and yet another with the monitoring and control of terrorist suspects.

With regard to radical Islam. I believe that we appease these groups at our peril. We must resist their spread by all means necessary.

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Jun 16 3.32pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 It was a homophobic attack. That doesn't mean it cannot be a terrorist attack or the work of a mentally ill person. Of course. I don't really see the confusion. It can be all three.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Jun 16 3.32pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

It was a homophobic attack. That doesn't mean it cannot be a terrorist attack or the work of a mentally ill person.

Of course. I don't really see the confusion.

It can be all three.

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 14 Jun 16 3.45pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Clearly there is a separate issue with the availability of guns to all and yet another with the monitoring and control of terrorist suspects. With regard to radical Islam. I believe that we appease these groups at our peril. We must resist their spread by all means necessary. Surely you see the risk of 'cutting off the head' of this issue? It's difficult to do so without radicalising a whole new generation of terrorists - not exactly resisting the spread.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 14 Jun 16 3.45pm

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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Clearly there is a separate issue with the availability of guns to all and yet another with the monitoring and control of terrorist suspects.

With regard to radical Islam. I believe that we appease these groups at our peril. We must resist their spread by all means necessary.

Surely you see the risk of 'cutting off the head' of this issue? It's difficult to do so without radicalising a whole new generation of terrorists - not exactly resisting the spread.

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Jun 16 3.50pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow Surely you see the risk of 'cutting off the head' of this issue? It's difficult to do so without radicalising a whole new generation of terrorists - not exactly resisting the spread. So we do what? Be nice to them?
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Jun 16 3.50pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Surely you see the risk of 'cutting off the head' of this issue? It's difficult to do so without radicalising a whole new generation of terrorists - not exactly resisting the spread.

So we do what? Be nice to them?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Jun 16 4.07pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Clearly there is a separate issue with the availability of guns to all and yet another with the monitoring and control of terrorist suspects. Arguably monitoring and controlling suspects is a moot point if your going to allow them to legally purchase and aquire weapons. Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger With regard to radical Islam. I believe that we appease these groups at our peril. We must resist their spread by all means necessary. Some forms, as a priority, but I think if we do, without providing reasonable grounds for change within nations of the middle east, new variants will form within the nest of allied nations like Saudi etc. (which is arguably has exported the forms of radical Islam that have become a problem). Countries like Iran, and Shia, don't seem so bent on the idea of international Jihad, and whilst raising questionable regimes, do generally seem regionalised and less given to an international scale - It may be possible to work with them. Even Hezbollah, has largely contained its conflicts to specific conflicts, within the Muslim world of politics and regions of the middle east. Similar with the Taliban. Where necessary, these may be easier to deal with through reasonable economic and social compromise in foreign policy (rather than via conflict). Groups like IS and Al-Qaeda represent an unusual faceless threat - in that they are functionally international and more ideological driven than regionally motivated. Problem is, its very difficult to separate these groups out from more legitimate movements that have sprung up in response to tyranny and oppression of Muslims in other nations. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Jun 16 4.07pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Clearly there is a separate issue with the availability of guns to all and yet another with the monitoring and control of terrorist suspects.

Arguably monitoring and controlling suspects is a moot point if your going to allow them to legally purchase and aquire weapons.

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

With regard to radical Islam. I believe that we appease these groups at our peril. We must resist their spread by all means necessary.

Some forms, as a priority, but I think if we do, without providing reasonable grounds for change within nations of the middle east, new variants will form within the nest of allied nations like Saudi etc. (which is arguably has exported the forms of radical Islam that have become a problem).

Countries like Iran, and Shia, don't seem so bent on the idea of international Jihad, and whilst raising questionable regimes, do generally seem regionalised and less given to an international scale - It may be possible to work with them.

Even Hezbollah, has largely contained its conflicts to specific conflicts, within the Muslim world of politics and regions of the middle east. Similar with the Taliban. Where necessary, these may be easier to deal with through reasonable economic and social compromise in foreign policy (rather than via conflict).

Groups like IS and Al-Qaeda represent an unusual faceless threat - in that they are functionally international and more ideological driven than regionally motivated.

Problem is, its very difficult to separate these groups out from more legitimate movements that have sprung up in response to tyranny and oppression of Muslims in other nations.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Jun 16 4.11pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger So we do what? Be nice to them? You isolate the threat and exterminate where you can, but you also look at resolving the issues that are serving to alienate Muslims and radicalise them. You'll never end Sunni Islamists movements like IS and Al-Qaeda without dealing with the issues of political power across the middle east that fuels them (notably corrupt oppressive regimes in Saudi, Kuwait, Jordan, UAE etc). These regimes suppress opposition with state force, and in turn have resulted in opposition that has evolved into a similar mentality. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Jun 16 4.11pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

So we do what? Be nice to them?

You isolate the threat and exterminate where you can, but you also look at resolving the issues that are serving to alienate Muslims and radicalise them.

You'll never end Sunni Islamists movements like IS and Al-Qaeda without dealing with the issues of political power across the middle east that fuels them (notably corrupt oppressive regimes in Saudi, Kuwait, Jordan, UAE etc). These regimes suppress opposition with state force, and in turn have resulted in opposition that has evolved into a similar mentality.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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nairb75 Baltimore 14 Jun 16 6.19pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 You isolate the threat and exterminate where you can, but you also look at resolving the issues that are serving to alienate Muslims and radicalise them. You'll never end Sunni Islamists movements like IS and Al-Qaeda without dealing with the issues of political power across the middle east that fuels them (notably corrupt oppressive regimes in Saudi, Kuwait, Jordan, UAE etc). These regimes suppress opposition with state force, and in turn have resulted in opposition that has evolved into a similar mentality. well, the saudis spending loads of money to educate the muslim world on the wonders of wahabaism is one that isn't discussed. them pushing the boundaries only heightens the fears of the shi'ite/iranians, who have to up the ante of extremsim. muslims the world over didn't start this until the saudis took it upon themselves to export their very radical version of the religion. now, every nutter has a "legitimate" place to exercise his/her crazy.
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nairb75

Baltimore 14 Jun 16 6.19pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

You isolate the threat and exterminate where you can, but you also look at resolving the issues that are serving to alienate Muslims and radicalise them.

well, the saudis spending loads of money to educate the muslim world on the wonders of wahabaism is one that isn't discussed. them pushing the boundaries only heightens the fears of the shi'ite/iranians, who have to up the ante of extremsim.

muslims the world over didn't start this until the saudis took it upon themselves to export their very radical version of the religion. now, every nutter has a "legitimate" place to exercise his/her crazy.

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Ouzo Dan Behind you 14 Jun 16 8.45pm
The overwhelming majority of practising muslims find Homosexuals abhorrent, quelle surprise theyve started murdering them in the west The mountains are calling & I must go.
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Ouzo Dan

Behind you 14 Jun 16 8.45pm

The overwhelming majority of practising muslims find Homosexuals abhorrent, quelle surprise theyve started murdering them in the west

The mountains are calling & I must go.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 14 Jun 16 8.58pm
Originally posted by Ouzo Dan The overwhelming majority of practising muslims find Homosexuals abhorrent, quelle surprise theyve started murdering them in the west There was a Muslim transsexual on the tellybox last night interviewed during the vigil at Old Compton Street. Sounds like she gets shocking treatment from both Muslims and islamaphobic members of the LGBT community. Whilst I can understand her treatment from Muslims (even though it's terrible) I would have thought that a group that must suffer a fair bit of hate would be more empathetic. Still it shows that all 'communities' (I hate that word) are a microcosm of society in general. Edited by nickgusset (14 Jun 2016 9.02pm)
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 14 Jun 16 8.58pm

Originally posted by Ouzo Dan

The overwhelming majority of practising muslims find Homosexuals abhorrent, quelle surprise theyve started murdering them in the west

There was a Muslim transsexual on the tellybox last night interviewed during the vigil at Old Compton Street. Sounds like she gets shocking treatment from both Muslims and islamaphobic members of the LGBT community.

Whilst I can understand her treatment from Muslims (even though it's terrible) I would have thought that a group that must suffer a fair bit of hate would be more empathetic.

Still it shows that all 'communities' (I hate that word) are a microcosm of society in general.

Edited by nickgusset (14 Jun 2016 9.02pm)

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legaleagle 14 Jun 16 11.49pm
Indeed,particularly in the USA where the persistence of extreme views coupled with the ready availability of weapons,seems to make it a world leader in nutters regularly mowing down people they are intolerant of,be it a homophobe in Orlando ,a white supremacist in a Church in Charleston... or people who are just nutters and intolerant of others,ie the crazy mass cinema and school shootings... And before we get too carried away having pops at Islam and Muslims in general (as opposed,say, to sulafism,which perhaps bears the same relationship to Islam as Southern Baptist fundamentalists in the US bear to Christianity generally)let's not forget our own not so very distant past where a good old British non muslim homophobe nail bombed the Admiral Duncan pub in Soho in 1999... Edited by legaleagle (14 Jun 2016 11.49pm)
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legaleagle

14 Jun 16 11.49pm

Indeed,particularly in the USA where the persistence of extreme views coupled with the ready availability of weapons,seems to make it a world leader in nutters regularly mowing down people they are intolerant of,be it a homophobe in Orlando ,a white supremacist in a Church in Charleston... or people who are just nutters and intolerant of others,ie the crazy mass cinema and school shootings...

And before we get too carried away having pops at Islam and Muslims in general (as opposed,say, to sulafism,which perhaps bears the same relationship to Islam as Southern Baptist fundamentalists in the US bear to Christianity generally)let's not forget our own not so very distant past where a good old British non muslim homophobe nail bombed the Admiral Duncan pub in Soho in 1999...

Edited by legaleagle (14 Jun 2016 11.49pm)

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Sportyteacher London 15 Jun 16 6.59am
Originally posted by rednblue4eva Of course Donald Trump claims the solution is more guns! [Link] It's not guns that kill but the people who use them. Having said that, because too many Americans provenly use guns with irresponsibility, I'd love to see both NRA and Republicans radically change gun laws in keeping with Obama's wishes...but it's not going to happen anytime soon. NRA = Three Brass Monkeys!
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Sportyteacher

London 15 Jun 16 6.59am

Originally posted by rednblue4eva

Of course Donald Trump claims the solution is more guns!

[Link]

It's not guns that kill but the people who use them. Having said that, because too many Americans provenly use guns with irresponsibility, I'd love to see both NRA and Republicans radically change gun laws in keeping with Obama's wishes...but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

NRA = Three Brass Monkeys!

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Kermit8 Hevon 15 Jun 16 8.22am
Waves of three for Orlando; Voice chick murdered last week homophobic nutjob attack at the weekend Two year old kid was an alligator's supper there last night now. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8